Rev. Raymond Graves -- 11 July 2002

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>> Gary Walker: JUST AHEAD ON "NEED TO KNOW," LAST MONTH'S SHOOTING DEATH OF 14-YEAR-OLD CRAIG HEARD AT THE HANDS OF THE ROCHESTER POLICE HAS AGAIN RAISED QUESTIONS ABOUT RACISM IN THE ROCHESTER POLICE DEPARTMENT. STIRRING THE CONTROVERSY IS THE REVEREND RAYMOND GRAVES. WE'LL SPEAK ONE-ON-ONE WITH HIM ABOUT HIS CHARGES OF RACISM WITHIN THE R.P.D. ALSO, ELLEN ROSEN IS HERE WITH THIS WEEK'S BUSINESS NEWS, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT'S PLAN TO CRACK DOWN ON CROOKED C.E.O.s. AND THE BLUE ANGELS STREAK OVER ROCHESTER. IT'S ALL AHEAD ON "NEED TO KNOW."

>> WE WILL NOT CONDONE LAWLESSNESS IN THIS COMMUNITY OF ANY KIND, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO TURN A DEAF EAR TO THE PLEAS OF CITIZENS.

>> THIS IS "NEED TO KNOW," THE ROCHESTER AREA'S ONLY IN-DEPTH NEWS PROGRAM. "NEED TO KNOW" IS A PRODUCTION OF WXXI NEWS AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, COVERING ISSUES, POLITICS, EDUCATION AND CURRENT EVENTS.

>> "NEED TO KNOW" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE DAISY MARQUIS JONES FOUNDATION, BY DORSCHEL LEXUS, AND THROUGH THE SUPPORT OF VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

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>> Gary Walker: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. I'M GARY WALKER. TONIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO SPEAK WITH A MAN WHO HAS BECOME THE SPOKESPERSON OF FAMILIES OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS SHOT AND KILLED BY THE ROCHESTER POLICE. AND ONCE AGAIN, HE HAS PLACED HIMSELF IN THE CENTER OF A RACIAL CONTROVERSY. ON JUNE 10th, ROCHESTER POLICE OFFICERS SHOT AND KILLED 14-YEAR-OLD CRAIG HEARD NEAR THE CORNER OF PARK AVENUE AND GIRTON PLACE. POLICE SAY THE SHOOTING WAS JUSTIFIED IN THAT HEARD HAD TURNED HIS STOLEN CAR INTO A WEAPON WHEN HE APPEARED POISED TO RUN OVER AN APPROACHING POLICE OFFICER. HEARD'S FAMILY SAYS THE OFFICERS USED UNNECESSARY FORCE. REVEREND RAYMOND GRAVES HAS URGED THE FAMILY TO HIRE A LAWYER TO CONDUCT AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE SHOOTING AND TO SUE THE CITY. HE SAYS HEARD WAS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND THAT PLAYED A ROLE IN THE INCIDENT. HE ALSO CHARGED THAT THE ROCHESTER POLICE WILL TRY TO COVER UP THE TRUTH. THAT REVEREND GRAVES IS A FOCAL POINT IN THIS CONTROVERSY SHOULD NOT BE SURPRISING. WHENEVER THERE'S A POLICE SHOOTING INVOLVING AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN CIVILIAN, GRAVES HAS LED THE VOICES OF CRITICISM FROM THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY, BRINGING CHARGES OF RACIAL BIAS AMONG OFFICERS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. BUT WHAT ROLE SHOULD HE PLAY IN THE SOCIAL CONTROVERSY AND HOW EFFECTIVE IS HIS CRITICISM? "NEED TO KNOW'S" MATT CUMMINGS SPOKE WITH COMMUNITY LEADERS TO FIND OUT.

>> THE POINT IS THAT WHEN THAT CAR WAS PUT IN DRIVE AND POINTED TOWARDS THAT POLICE OFFICER, HE WAS OUT IN THE OPEN. THAT AUTOMOBILE BECAME A DEADLY WEAPON.

>> Matt Cummings: MAYOR WILLIAM JOHNSON SAYS THAT CONCLUSION BY ROCHESTER POLICE OFFICERS THE MORNING OF JUNE 10th LED THEM TO SHOOT AND KILL 14-YEAR-OLD CRAIG HEARD AFTER AN EARLY MORNING CAR CHASE ENDED ON GIRTON PLACE.

>> AND WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THE NEW YORK STATE CONSTITUTION AND LAWS DO EMPOWER POLICE OFFICERS TO USE WHATEVER FORCE THEY THINK IS NECESSARY TO PREVENT THIS KIND OF SITUATION.

>> Matt Cummings: A GRAND JURY WILL DECIDE IF THE OFFICERS INVOLVED HANDLED THE SITUATION APPROPRIATELY. BUT ONE MAN BELIEVES THE SHOOTING WAS RACIALLY MOTIVATED AND THE R.P.D. IS TRYING TO COVER UP THE TRUTH. HIS NAME IS REVEREND RAYMOND GRAVES.

>> THERE SEEMS TO BE NO JUSTICE IN OUR COMMUNITY.

>> Matt Cummings: SINCE THE DEATH OF CRAIG HEARD, GRAVES HAS SOUGHT NOT ONLY JUSTICE BUT ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE PART OF THE ROCHESTER POLICE DEPARTMENT. GRAVES HAS LONG DEMANDED A CIVILIAN REVIEW BOARD TO WATCH OVER THE R.P.D. HE DOES NOT TRUST THE DEPARTMENT'S ABILITY TO POLICE ITSELF AND DISCIPLINE OFFICERS WHO OVERSTEP THEIR BOUNDS, A CHARGE THAT ANGERS POLICE.

>> USUALLY HE'S INEFFECTIVE, INSIGNIFICANT AND MAKES ISSUES TO BE COUCHED AS RACIALLY MOTIVATED WHEN THEY'RE NOT. AND MOST OF THE TIME HE SPEAKS FROM...IGNORANCE.

>> Matt Cummings: AS PRESIDENT OF THE ROCHESTER POLICE UNION, RON EVANGELISTA SAYS COPS ARE OFFENDED BY GRAVES' ACCUSATIONS THAT THE OFFICERS WHO KILLED CRAIG HEARD ACTED WITH RACIAL MOTIVATION. HE SAYS THE PUBLIC HOLDS POLICE OFFICERS TO A HIGHER STANDARD BUT THAT IT COMES WITH A PRICE.

>> IT'S A TWO-EDGED SWORD. WHAT WE EXPECT THEN IS A HIGHER LEVEL OF THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. WE EXPECT TO BE MORE BELIEVABLE. IF YOU'RE GOING TO HOLD US TO THIS HIGHER STANDARD, BECAUSE OF OUR SELECTION PROCESS, BECAUSE OF OUR EXPERTISE, BECAUSE OF OUR TRAINING, BECAUSE OF OUR EXPERIENCE, THEN WE EXPECT YOU TO GIVE US THE GREATER BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT BECAUSE OF THOSE VERY SAME REASONS.

>> Matt Cummings: NOT EVERYONE DISMISSES REVEREND GRAVES' CRITICISMS. BEN DOUGLAS IS A ROCHESTER CITY COUNCIL MEMBER AND CHAIR OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY, SERVICES AND THE ARTS COMMITTEE.

>> I THINK HE PERFORMS A LEGITIMATE FUNCTION IN PUTTING THE SPOTLIGHT ON THINGS THAT MAY BE QUESTIONABLE TO THE COMMUNITY. HE MAY BE ASKING QUESTIONS THAT OTHER PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY HAVE IN THEIR OWN MINDS, AND IT'S GOOD TO HAVE IT OUT RATHER THAN NOT HEAR IT AT ALL. SO IN THAT SENSE, I THINK IT'S GOOD TO HAVE THE DEBATE AND GOOD TO PUT THE QUESTIONS ON THE TABLE.

>> Matt Cummings: MAYOR JOHNSON SAYS GRAVES OFTEN PAINTS AN INACCURATE PICTURE OF CITY POLICE OFFICERS.

>> TO CREATE THE PICTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE IS THAT WE'VE GOT A RENEGADE POLICE DEPARTMENT RUNNING WILD, RUNNING AROUND THE STREETS LOOKING FOR AND HUNTING DOWN PEOPLE OF COLOR AND SHOOTING THEM DOWN IN COLD BLOOD. THE RECORD CERTAINLY DOES NOT SUPPORT THAT.

>> Matt Cummings: JOHNSON SAYS GRAVES MUST SHOW BALANCE IN HIS CRITICISM: IN OTHER WORDS, EXPRESS OUTRAGE WHEN A PERSON OF COLOR PERPETUATES A CRIME ON OTHERS. HE POINTS TO GRAVES' SILENCE AFTER A DRUG DEALER FIRED A SHOTGUN INTO A FAMILY DAY CARE HOME ON SCIO STREET JUST DAYS AFTER HEARD'S DEATH.

>> IF A POLICE OFFICER IS WRONG, THEN THERE ARE WAYS TO DEAL WITH THAT. BUT WE HAVE HAD FAR MORE FOOLISH WASTED -- WASTE OF LIVES PERPETUATED BY YOUNG BLACK MEN AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR, YOU KNOW, AND YOU'RE RIGHT: I WANT TO SEE REVEREND GRAVES AS OUTRAGED ABOUT THAT AS HE IS WHEN A POLICE OFFICER IS ACCUSED. HE NEVER -- AND I CHALLENGE HIM TO PRESENT TO ME A TIME WHEN HE HAS DONE IT. HE NEVER CAN FIND IT IN HIS CHRISTIAN SPIRIT TO EXPRESS AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF OUTRAGE.

>> Matt Cummings: WHILE FRUSTRATED BY GRAVES' COMMENTS FOLLOWING THE SHOOTING DEATH OF CRAIG HEARD HERE ON GIRTON PLACE, JOHNSON CREDITS HIM WITH PROVIDING A VOICE TO CITY MINORITY GROUPS. BUT HE SAYS GRAVES UNRAVELS MUCH OF HIS GOOD WORK BY MAKING WHAT HE CALLS UNFOUNDED AND RECKLESS CHARGES.

>> HE ONLY DOES IT WHEN THERE'S AN INCIDENT. I MEAN, IT TAKES A SUSTAINED EFFORT. I HAVE SAID THIS REPEATEDLY. PART OF THE REASON THAT HE CAN'T HAVE THE LEVEL OF CIVILIAN REVIEW THAT HE AND OTHERS WOULD LIKE IS BECAUSE THE LAWS OF NEW YORK STATE DON'T PERMIT IT. SO, THEREFORE, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD NEED TO LEAD A SUSTAINED CAMPAIGN IN ALBANY TO CHANGE THE LAW.

>> Matt Cummings: EVANGELISTA SAYS DESPITE THE TRAGEDY OF CRAIG HEARD'S DEATH, HE CAN'T THINK OF A ROCHESTER POLICE-INVOLVED SHOOTING IN THE LAST 15 TO 20 YEARS THAT WASN'T JUSTIFIED.

>> THERE'S RISKS AND BALANCES IN EVERYTHING WE DO. WE CAN'T BE A PASSIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT. WE CAN'T BE A PASSIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT. WE NEED TO BE AGGRESSIVE. AND IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN TOMORROW. THERE WILL BE OTHER INSTANCES. THIS IS ONLY A SMALL SNAPSHOT IN TIME. IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

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>> Gary Walker: THANK YOU FOR THAT REPORT, MATT. REVEREND GRAVES, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Gary Walker: WE APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU, GARY.

>> Gary Walker: NOW, YOU JUST HEARD THE MAYOR SAY THAT YOU SOMETIMES MAKE RECKLESS CHARGES, THAT YOU DON'T EQUALLY CONDEMN BLACK-ON-BLACK VIOLENCE OR INCIDENTS INVOLVING AFRICAN-AMERICANS SHOOTING AFRICAN-AMERICANS WITH THE SAME OUTRAGE AS YOU SAVE FOR A POLICE SHOOTING. COULD YOU RESPOND?

>> FIRST, THE MAYOR LIED. I WAS THE FIRST ONE IN THIS CITY TO LEAD MAJOR DRUG MARCHES AGAINST DRUG DEALERS, THOSE WHO SNUFF OUT LIVES IN THIS COMMUNITY. I WAS THE FIRST PERSON IN THIS CITY TO ASK THIS COMMUNITY TO TURN IN ALL KILLERS, WHO MANY OF US FEEL IS ROAMING THE STREETS NOW, THAT IS RELATIVES, FRIENDS, HUSBANDS, WIVES, TO TURN THE KILLERS IN, THE FIRST ONE TO DO IT BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE WAS AFRAID TO SAY SO. WHEN DAVIS SMITH, WHO WAS AT CHOIR REHEARSAL AT THE BAPTIST CHURCH LEFT CHOIR REHEARSAL THAT NIGHT AND WENT HOME, SOMEBODY ABDUCTED HER AND RAPED AND KILLED HER, I CALLED FOR IT THEN. WHEN BONDS WAS STABBED DOWNTOWN, STANDING AT THE BUS STATION, WAITING FOR THE BUS, I CALLED FOR THEM TO TURN IN ALL KILLERS THEN. AND I HAVE DONE IT CONSISTENTLY. NOW, GETTING BACK TO THE DAY CARE SITUATION, THE PRESS INTERVIEWED ME STANDING ON SCIO STREET NEAR THAT DAY CARE CENTER, AND SAYING THAT THERE SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY FOR ANYONE WHO DID SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IN FACT, THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL ARTICLES WRITTEN IN THE "D&C" CONCERNING MY STATEMENT SINCE. SO THE MAYOR ISN'T -- EITHER HE ISN'T IN TOWN OR HE ISN'T LISTENING OR HE ISN'T WATCHING TELEVISION. I HAVE CONSISTENTLY CRITICIZED THOSE WHO MURDER US. I HAVE BURIED TOO MANY OF THE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN GUNNED DOWN IN THIS TOWN NOT TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT IT AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT. BUT I'M NOT GOING TO GET ON THE AIR EVERY TIME SOMEBODY GUNS SOMEBODY DOWN BECAUSE THERE'S TWO OR THREE TIMES A WEEK, SEEMINGLY. BUT THE POLICE ISSUE ACTION IS NOT AS FREQUENT AND SO THEREFORE IT CREATES A GREATER INTEREST ON THE PART OF --

>> Gary Walker: SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S AN UNFAIR CRITICISM ON THE PART OF THE MAYOR THEN?

>> YES. NOW, THE MAYOR, HE SHOULD SOMEHOW TAKE A STAND BECAUSE HE CAME OUT WHEN CRAIG WAS SHOT AND ACCEPTED WHAT THE POLICE HAD SAID BEFORE A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION HAD BEEN MADE. AND THAT WAS IRRESPONSIBILITY ON HIS PART. I LIKE WHAT THE MAYOR DID IN INGLEWOOD, CALIFORNIA, WHEN THIS BOY WAS SHOT A FEW DAYS AGO. HE STATED THAT WHAT HE SAW WAS ENOUGH TO SAY THAT IT WAS ABUSIVE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED BEFORE. AND SO THE MAYOR ALWAYS MAKES THOSE IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENTS BEHIND A TRAGEDY LIKE THIS, AND I THINK HE NEEDS TO GET A PRESS SECRETARY TO ANALYZE WHAT HE'S GOING TO SAY BEFORE HE GETS ON THE AIR BECAUSE HE'S ANGERED A LOT OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THIS COMMUNITY WHEN HE CAME ON RIGHT AFTER THE INCIDENT HAPPENED AND STATED THAT HE ACCEPTED WHAT THE POLICE HAD SAID. THE INVESTIGATION -- I DON'T THINK DUFFY EVEN KNEW. SO HE NEEDS TO STRAIGHTEN UP AND BE THE KIND OF MAYOR HE OUGHT TO BE, AND THEN I DON'T THINK THESE OFFICERS WHO HAVE POOR JUDGMENT IN SHOOTING -- IT'S NOT ALL RACISM, BUT POOR JUDGMENT AND IMPROPER TRAINING.

>> Gary Walker: LET ME INTERJECT THIS BECAUSE YOU RAISE A GOOD POINT, SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE FLIPPED AROUND AND SAID ABOUT YOU, THAT YOU WILL COME OUT AND CONDEMN THE POLICE WITH NO INFORMATION, THAT YOU'LL ASSUME IMMEDIATELY THAT IT WAS AN UNJUSTIFIED SHOOTING BEFORE YOU KNOW THE FACTS.

>> BUT YOU SEE, WHAT WE TALK ABOUT IS THE HISTORY OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED BECAUSE THEY HAVE LIED CONSISTENTLY AND THEREFORE WE DON'T EVER ACCEPT THE STATEMENT THAT THEY MAKE INITIALLY BECAUSE I GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO 1978 WHEN DENISE HAWKENS WAS KILLED. EVERY CASE THAT I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN, AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT IN MOST OF THOSE INSTANCES, THEY LIED. WE BELIEVE THAT EVERY LIFE, EVERY LIFE, COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED IF THERE HAD BEEN MUCH MORE CAREFUL POLICE WORK INVOLVED HERE. EVERY LIFE.

>> Gary Walker: WHEN YOU SAY "WE," WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

>> I'M TALKING ABOUT THOSE WHO GET UPSET ABOUT THESE KINDS OF INJUSTICES THAT GO ON IN THIS COMMUNITY, BASICALLY THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY. AND I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR THE WHOLE COMMUNITY --

>> Gary Walker: DO YOU SPEAK FOR THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY?

>> I DON'T CLAIM TO SPEAK FOR ALL OF ANYBODY, BUT I DO SPEAK FOR A LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO BE SEEN BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID THEY'LL BE FIRED AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING, BUT SUPPORTIVE OF THE IDEAS THAT I TALK ABOUT WHEN I TALK ABOUT POLICE BRUTALITY.

>> Gary Walker: IN THE LAST 15 YEARS THAT I HAVE COVERED YOU, IN ALL THE POLICE SHOOTINGS INVOLVING AFRICAN-AMERICANS, IN YOUR MIND, REVEREND GRAVES, HAVE THEY ALL BEEN UNJUSTIFIED?

>> I THINK THEY ALL HAVE BEEN IN TERMS OF KILLING. NOW, I THINK THERE WERE ALTERNATIVE WAYS, CAREFUL POLICE WORK THAT THESE LIVES COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. FOR EXAMPLE, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TAKE THE CASE OF ALICIA McCULLOUGH. THE OFFICER WAS THERE ALL MORNING TRYING TO NEGOTIATE THE DISPUTE BETWEEN SHE AND THE BOYFRIEND. THE BACKUP OFFICER CAME UP AND IN LESS THAN TWO MINUTES HE HAD GUNNED HER DOWN. WHY DIDN'T THE OFFICER WHO WAS THERE SHOOT HER? THE SAME THING HAPPENED WITH THE DEFLET, WHEN DUFFY AND WARSHAW AND DRAYMORE WERE IN MY OFFICE, AND THEY WERE GOING TO EXPLAIN TO ME THAT THIS MAN WAS DRUNK AND ON COCAINE AND THEN HE LEAPED OVER THE FENCE AFTER THE OFFICERS. THE ONLY WAY THAT HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN OVER THAT FENCE IN THAT CONDITION, WITH TWO KNIVES THEY SAY IN HIS HAND, WAS THE FENCE HAD TO BE ANKLE-DEEP. AND THE FENCE THAT I SAW, HE COULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN OVER THAT WITHOUT TRYING TO PULL OVER IT.

>> Gary Walker: LET ME ASK YOU THIS, AND IT'S A DIRECT QUESTION HERE: YOU SERVED AS AN ARMY M.P., DIDN'T YOU?

>> VERY BRIEFLY, WE HAD SOME DUTY THERE ON THE BASE, BUT NOT FULL...

>> Gary Walker: PERHAPS YOU FACED LIVE BULLETS OR SPEEDING CARS COMING AT YOU; I DON'T KNOW; I REALLY DON'T. BUT DO YOU AGREE THAT WE SEND POLICE INTO UNTENABLE, NO-WIN SITUATIONS MANY TIMES, WHERE PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING AT THEM OR TRYING TO RUN THEM DOWN OR TRYING TO STAB THEM OR STAB SOMEBODY ELSE? IN THAT SPLIT-SECOND OF CRUCIAL DECISION-MAKING, I MEAN, WHAT SHOULD THE OFFICERS DO? SHOULD THEY RISK THEMSELVES, TAKE THE FIRST SHOT, OR SHOULD THEY PROTECT THEMSELVES OR THE PERSON WHO IS --

>> BUT IT'S NOT ALWAYS CRUCIAL. YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS. THE ONE REASON WE FEEL THAT THERE IS SOME RACISM INVOLVED HERE IS BECAUSE WE CAN'T FIND ANYPLACE, SINCE THE 1940s, WHERE THIS POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS GUNNED DOWN ANY WHITE PERSON, NOT ONE, EXCEPT IRONDEQUOIT WHEN THEY KILLED BOB KEESLAW, AND THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE KILLED HIM, IN IRONDEQUOIT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. HERE WAS A MAN WHO WAS A MENTAL CASE, I UNDERSTAND, HAD A CARPENTER'S HAMMER OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET WAVING IT. YOU MEAN TO TELL ME TWO YOUNG POLICE OFFICERS CANNOT TAKE A HAMMER AWAY FROM A MAN? NO, I CANNOT ACCEPT THAT. NOW, GETTING BACK INTO THE SERVICE, I HAD AN EXPERIENCE, SUPPOSED TO BE CHECKING THE PASS OF A GUY, AND I GUESS HE WAS DRUNK OR SOMETHING, AND HE PULLED A KNIFE ON ME. I COULD HAVE SHOT HIM. NOW, I BEAT HIM WITH A STICK, AND IF HE'S STILL LIVING, HE STILL FEELS IT, YOU KNOW. BUT I DIDN'T KILL HIM. AND SO I AM JUST SAYING BECAUSE YOU'RE TRAINED TO KILL -- AND THAT'S WHAT THEY CLAIM, WE ARE TRAINED TO SHOOT TO KILL -- YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO KILL. AND THAT IS OUR POSITION. AND I'M SAYING BECAUSE OF THE HISTORY, AND IT'S BEEN ABOUT A DOZEN OR SO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HUNG IN JAIL AND MURDERED ON THE STREETS, KILLED ON THE STREETS BY COPS, THAT I BELIEVE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED, AND NOT ALL THAT WAS HUNG BUT SOME WHO WAS IN JAIL THAT I FEEL COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

>> Gary Walker: I HAVE A TOUGH QUESTION FOR YOU, AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY I'M ASKING IT. NOW, YOU DO NOT LIVE IN THE CITY?

>> NO.

>> Gary Walker: YOU LIVE IN THE SUBURBS. THE REASON I RAISE THAT IS BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THE MAYOR SAID TO US, IN THAT HE DOESN'T THINK YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT OTHER CITIZENS, LARGELY AFRICAN-AMERICAN CITIZENS, WHO ARE AFRAID FOR THEIR SAFETY, WHO FACE DRUG DEALINGS, DRUG SHOOTINGS, DRUG HOMES. THEY ARE CONSTANTLY ASKING HIM, IN HIS WORDS, TO BREAK UP LOITERING KIDS AND GANGS, TO CRACK DOWN ON DRUG HOUSES WITHOUT COURT ORDERS, TO ACT TOUGHER, TO HAVE MORE POLICE ON THE STREET BECAUSE THEY ARE FRIGHTENED. AND HE HAS TO FOLLOW THE RULE OF LAW. HE SAYS YOU DON'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ALL THE OTHER VICTIMS OF THE PEOPLE PERHAPS THAT ARE BEING SHOT AT BY THE POLICE, THE OTHER CITIZENS.

>> SEE, HERE AGAIN, THE MAYOR LIES ON LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. I HAVE LIVED IN THE CITY. I LIVED ON TOBACCO ROAD. I HAVE LIVED EVERYWHERE. YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT WHERE YOU LIVE; IT'S WHAT YOU GIVE. AND I HAVE RISKED MY LIFE ALL UP AND DOWN THESE STREETS. I CAN WALK ANY STREET IN TOWN AND THE DRUG DEALERS, ANYBODY ELSE, KNOW ME. I BET HE WON'T. NOW, THIS IS THE KIND OF THING I'M TALKING ABOUT. I HELP PEOPLE WHO GET IN DRUG TREATMENT CENTERS. I HAVE HELPED PEOPLE IN EVERY PRISON AROUND HERE, EVEN BEEN IN IT, TRYING TO HELP MEN COMING OUT TO RECEIVE JOBS AND WHAT NOT.

>> Gary Walker: WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT. LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER? WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER TO ALL OF THIS? HOW IN YOUR MIND DO YOU STOP UNJUSTIFIED SHOOTINGS BY THE POLICE, IN YOUR MIND?

>> UNJUSTIFIED SHOOTINGS, I THINK YOU'VE GOT TO CHANGE THE CULTURE OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THAT BY HAVING A FIRMER -- MUCH FIRMER POLITICAL LEADERSHIP IN THIS COMMUNITY, RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP, AND I THINK THAT THE POLICE HAVE TO TAKE A FIRM STAND AGAINST THOSE WHO EXERCISE POOR JUDGMENT AND THOSE WHO DO SHOW SOME SIGNS OF RACISM BECAUSE THEY DO LIE. THEY LIE IN EVERY PROFESSION. THEY LIE IN THE MINISTRY; THEY LIE IN POLITICS; THEY LIE IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, LOOK AT THE RECENT SCANDAL IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. NOT JUST THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BUT PROTESTANT CHURCHES, TOO. PREACHERS LIE; TEACHERS LIE; MAYORS LIE; COPS LIE. SO EVEN, GARY, WHEN THEY HAVE A JUSTIFIABLE SHOOTING, A JUSTIFIABLE SHOOTING, WE OUGHT TO EXAMINE IT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS JUSTIFIABLE.

>> Gary Walker: AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE DOING.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Gary Walker: REVEREND GRAVES, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BE HERE AND I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Gary Walker: THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THIS SEGMENT. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THIS CONTINUING STORY, LOG ON TO OUR WEB SITE AT wxxi.org/ntk. WHILE YOU'RE THERE, YOU CAN ALSO TAKE PART IN OUR WEEKLY INTERNET POLL. AND FOR THE LATEST ON POLITICS AND STATE GOVERNMENT, IT'S Www.NYcitizens.org.