>> Gary Walker: JUST AHEAD ON

"NEED TO KNOW," NEW YORK WILL

HAVE LESS OF A VOICE IN

WASHINGTON, AND UPSTATE MAY

HAVE LESS OF A VOICE IN

ALBANY.

WHY?

REAPPORTIONMENT, ALSO KNOWN AS

REDISTRICTING.

SOME OF US ARE NOT AS FAMILIAR

WITH IT FOR GOOD REASON: IT

HAPPENS ONLY EVERY TEN YEARS.

AND THIS YEAR, LAWMAKERS ARE

DRAWING LINES THAT WILL

DETERMINE WHO REPRESENTS YOU

IN CONGRESS, ALBANY, AND IN

MONROE COUNTY.

COMING UP, WE'LL EXPLAIN

REAPPORTIONMENT AND WHY YOU

SHOULD CARE.

IT'S ALL AHEAD ON "NEED TO

KNOW."

>> IT'S HOW YOU APPORTION

POWER IN THE CONGRESSIONAL AND

STATE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.

>> THIS IS "NEED TO KNOW," THE

ROCHESTER AREA'S ONLY IN-DEPTH

NEWS PROGRAM.

"NEED TO KNOW" IS A PRODUCTION

OF WXXI NEWS AND PUBLIC

AFFAIRS, COVERING ISSUES,

POLITICS, EDUCATION AND

CURRENT EVENTS.

>> "NEED TO KNOW" IS MADE

POSSIBLE BY THE DAISY MARQUIS

JONES FOUNDATION, BY DORSCHEL

LEXUS, AND THROUGH THE SUPPORT

OF VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

(Music)

>> Gary Walker: THANK YOU FOR

JOINING US.

I'M GARY WALKER.

LAST YEAR THERE WAS A LOT OF

PUBLICITY OVER CENSUS 2000,

AND THIS YEAR WE SEE WHY WE

HAVE A CENSUS IN THE FIRST

PLACE, THE PROCESS OF

REAPPORTIONMENT.

CHANGES IN POPULATION CARRY A

POLITICAL WEIGHT IN

DETERMINING DISTRICT SIZE.

EVERY TEN YEARS, AFTER THE

CENSUS COUNT, THE LINES OF THE

STATE SENATE AND ASSEMBLY AS

WELL AS CONGRESSIONAL

DISTRICTS ARE REDRAWN, WHICH

IS NOT GOOD NEWS THIS DECADE

FOR NEW YORK STATE IN GENERAL

AND UPSTATE IN PARTICULAR.

THIS YEAR'S CENSUS REPORTS

CAME BACK SHOWING A TREND OF

NORTH AND EAST EXODUS;

POPULATIONS ARE MOVING SOUTH

AND WEST.

HERE'S HOW THE NUMBERS BREAK

DOWN:

NEW YORK STATE TOOK ONE OF THE

HARDEST HITS.

OF THE NATION'S 435 HOUSE

DISTRICTS, RIGHT NOW NEW YORK

HAS 31 SEATS.

AFTER THE LINES ARE REDRAWN,

WE WILL LOSE 2, DROPPING US

DOWN TO 29 SEATS, GIVING US

LARGER DISTRICTS AND LESS

CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATION.

JUST THIS WEEK, GOVERNOR

PATAKI ANNOUNCED PLANS TO

SPEND $2 MILLION ON A

REAPPORTIONMENT STUDY FOR NEW

YORK STATE.

HIS PLAN INVOLVES REDRAWING

ALL 211 LEGISLATIVE AND

CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS AS

WELL AS RESHAPING

CONGRESSIONAL BORDERS TO

ACCOMMODATE THE LOSS OF THE

TWO CONGRESSIONAL SEATS.

PATAKI'S PLAN DREW NEGATIVE

RESPONSE FROM BOTH DEMOCRATS

AND REPUBLICANS, SAYING

REAPPORTIONMENT IS A POWER

DELEGATED TO THE STATE

LEGISLATURE AND THE FUNDS

WOULD BE BETTER USED TO BOOST

UPSTATE ECONOMY.

FOR A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF

WHAT IS AT STAKE, WXXI NEWS

PRODUCED A REPORT ON THE

BASICS OF REAPPORTIONMENT.

>> Jennifer Reed: AS THE CROW

FLIES EAST TO WEST, NEW YORK

STATE COVERS 47,000 SQUARE

MILES.

CENSUS NUMBERS SHOW US AT JUST

OVER 18 MILLION PEOPLE, AND AS

THE TASK OF REAPPORTIONING NEW

YORK STATE REPRESENTATION

APPROACHES, GEOGRAPHY TURNS

INTO A STATEWIDE GRID OF

POLITICAL POSSIBILITIES AND

PERIL.

>> POLITICAL GRIDLOCK

GUARANTEED.

>> REDISTRICTING FAIRNESS,

LIKE BEAUTY, IS IN THE EYE OF

THE BEHOLDER.

>> I DON'T THINK THE MINORITY

COMMUNITY SHOULD GET ANY MORE

THAN IT DESERVES, BUT I THINK

IT AT LEAST SHOULD GET THE

OPPORTUNITY TO GET WHAT IT

DESERVES.

>> IF I COULD DRAW MY OWN

LINES, THAT WOULD BE VERY NICE

WITH ME.

>> Jennifer Reed: IT IS A

SENSITIVE AND COMPELLING

SUBJECT AMONG LAWMAKERS.

PRELIMINARY CENSUS REPORTS

INDICATE A LOSS OF POPULATION

IN WESTERN NEW YORK BUT GAINS

IN NUMBERS NEARER TO NEW YORK

CITY.

AND WHILE THE REDISTRICTING

PROCESS WILL ULTIMATELY

REFLECT A SHIFT IN

REPRESENTATION BASED ON THOSE

NUMBERS, IT'S ALSO WEIGHTED

HEAVILY IN POLITICS.

REAPPORTIONMENT, AS DESCRIBED

IN "THE AMERICAN HERITAGE

DICTIONARY," IS REDISTRIBUTION

OF REPRESENTATION IN A

LEGISLATIVE BODY ACCORDING TO

CHANGES IN THE CENSUS FIGURES

AS REQUIRED BY THE

CONSTITUTION.

BLAIR HORNER WORKS WITH

NYPIRG, THE NEW YORK PUBLIC

INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP.

>> STARTING IN THE LATE 1700s,

THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRED THAT

EVERY TEN YEARS THE FEDERAL

GOVERNMENT TAKE A CENSUS OF

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE

AMERICAN CITIZENS AND AS A

RESULT OF THAT CENSUS THEN

APPORTION OR COME UP WITH

DISTRICTS FOR THE MEMBERS OF

CONGRESS, STATE GOVERNMENT,

LOCAL GOVERNMENT, SO THAT THE

PUBLIC COULD BE ADEQUATELY

REPRESENTED IN A

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

>> Jennifer Reed: WHAT BEGAN

AS A SIMPLE STRATEGY OF

REPRESENTING CONSTITUENTS,

REAPPORTIONMENT HAS DEVELOPED

INTO A POLITICAL POWERHOUSE.

ASSEMBLYMAN RON CANESTRARI IS

A DEMOCRATIC TASK FORCE

CO-CHAIR.

>> IT'S AN EXCITING

ASSIGNMENT.

LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY.

AND WE'VE BEEN KIND OF GETTING

READY FOR THE BIG EVENT.

>> Jennifer Reed: IT SEEMS

STRAIGHTFORWARD ENOUGH:

CENSUS RESULTS COME IN,

NUMBERS GO OUT, AND DECISIONS

ARE MADE.

>> IT'S ABOUT THE SUPREME

COURT'S DECISIONS WHICH SAID

THAT EACH DISTRICT, WHETHER

CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, STATE

ASSEMBLY OR STATE SENATE, MUST

BASICALLY BE ONE PERSON/ONE

VOTE.

AND THE RESULT OF THE CHANGE

OF CENSUS, WE MUST CHANGE

DISTRICT LINES ACCORDINGLY.

>> Jennifer Reed: BUT IT'S THE

INTERPRETATION OF THOSE CENSUS

NUMBERS AND DEMOGRAPHIC

INFORMATION THAT CAN ALTER

DISTRICT LINES, DEPENDING ON

YOUR POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW.

THE IDEA WAS BORN IN 1811 BY

MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR

ELBRIDGE GERRY.

>> WE FIRST START TO FIGURE

OUT THAT MAYBE WITHIN COUNTIES

WE CAN START DEVELOPING LINES

THAT WILL GIVE OUR POLITICAL

PARTIES ONE ADVANTAGE OVER

ANOTHER OR TRY TO BREAK UP THE

POPULATION IN A WAY THAT

SOMEHOW MAXIMIZES PARTISAN

ADVANTAGE.

>> Jennifer Reed: BELIEVE IT

OR NOT, THE INCUMBENCY ISSUE

IS A LEGALLY LEGITIMATE BIAS

TO CONSIDER WHEN

REDISTRICTING.

>> THE POLITICS IN TERMS OF AN

INCUMBENCY, THE COURT HAS

RECOGNIZED THAT INCUMBENCY AND

SENIORITY PAY OFF TO A STATE,

PAY OFF TO A DISTRICT.

SO CONSISTENT WITH OTHER

GUIDELINES, WE CAN RESPECT

THAT CONSISTENT WITH OTHER

GUIDELINES.

>> WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THOSE

WHO CONTROL THE PROCESS, WHICH

IN THIS INSTANCE ARE THE

DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY IN THE

ASSEMBLY, WHAT THEY DO IS THEY

PACK AS MANY REPUBLICANS AS

THEY CAN INTO A SMALLER NUMBER

OF DISTRICTS AND DIVIDE UP

AREAS OF REPUBLICAN STRENGTH.

>> Jennifer Reed: A LOOK AT

THE CURRENT DISTRICT MAPS DOES

MAKE ONE WONDER: HOW DO THEY

COME TO LOOK THIS WAY?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S

THE POPULATION, ONE PERSON,

ONE VOTE.

EACH DISTRICT HAS TO BE

ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT TO THE

OTHER SO THAT YOU HAVE AN

EQUAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN EACH

DISTRICT SO THE VOTE OF THEIR

REPRESENTATIVES IS ROUGHLY

REPRESENTING AN EQUAL NUMBER

OF PEOPLE.

BUT IT ALSO IS ABOUT -- THAT'S

THE TEXTBOOK DEFINITION.

IT'S ALSO ABOUT POWER.

IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU APPORTION

POWER IN THE CONGRESSIONAL AND

STATE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.

>> Jennifer Reed: HERE'S HOW

IT WORKS: A SIX-PERSON

LEGISLATIVE TASK FORCE ON

DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH AND

REAPPORTIONMENT IS APPOINTED

BY THE LEADERS OF EACH HOUSE.

THE DEMOCRATS, AS RULING PARTY

IN THE ASSEMBLY, GET TWO VOTES

TO THE REPUBLICANS' ONE.

THE REPUBLICANS, ON THE OTHER

HAND, HAVE CONTROL OF THE

SENATE, SO THE VOTING IS

REVERSED.

DISTRICT LINES ARE DEBATED,

DRAWN AND REDRAWN WITH INPUT

FROM COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS

AND FELLOW LEGISLATORS WHOSE

DISTRICTS ARE ULTIMATELY

DECIDED BY THE COMMITTEE.

>> YOU PUT YOUR FATE IN

SOMEONE ELSE'S HANDS ON THIS

ISSUE.

IT IS A LOT LIKE BEING A

NERVOUS FLIER.

BUT IN THE LONG RUN, WE WILL

LAND, NO MATTER WHAT.

WHAT GOES UP COMES BACK DOWN.

FOR MOST OF US THERE WILL BE A

SAFE LANDING.

IT SHOULDN'T BE DRAMATIC

CHANGES, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO

DESIGN MY OWN DISTRICT.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A

PERFECT DISTRICT, BUT SOME ARE

MORE PERFECT THAN OTHERS.

>> IT'S A POLITICAL PROCESS;

THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

BUT WITHIN THE PROCESS YOU TRY

TO BE AS FAIR AS YOU CAN AS TO

WHAT YOU DO IN THE

REAPPORTIONMENT PROCESS.

AS I SAY, YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF

INTERESTS.

YOU HAVE THE PUERTO RICAN

LEGAL DEFENSE FUND; YOU'VE GOT

THE NAACP; YOU'VE GOT

NEIGHBOURHOOD GROUPS IN NEW

YORK CITY; YOU HAVE

NEIGHBOURHOOD GROUPS UP HERE;

YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALS WHO COME

IN TO TALK TO YOU...

SO YOU HAVE TO TRY AND WEIGH

ALL THAT INFORMATION, BUT IN

THE END IT'S STILL A POLITICAL

PROCESS AND YOU MAKE THE

PROCESS AS FAIR AS YOU CAN.

>> Jennifer Reed: A MUCH

BANTERED ABOUT ISSUE HAS BEEN

THE RIGHTS AND REPRESENTATION

OF MINORITIES ACROSS THE

STATE, ESPECIALLY IN NEW YORK

CITY.

GENUINE CONCERN OR GENUINE

POLITICS?

>> WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST

TWO DECADES IS THE VOTING

RIGHTS ACT, WHICH DID MANDATE

PROTECTING MINORITY VOTERS'

RIGHTS, WAS USED IN

CONJUNCTION WITH THE

ONE-PERSON/ONE-VOTE STANDARD

AS A LICENSE TO GERRYMANDER,

AND THE ADVENT OF COMPUTERS

MADE IT AN ALMOST PERFECT ART.

>> Jennifer Reed: FROM

BROOKLYN TO BUFFALO, RIPPLES

IN REPRESENTATION WILL AFFECT

NEARLY EVERY ASSEMBLY, SENATE

AND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

EARLY CENSUS FIGURES INDICATE

A LOSS OF AT LEAST ONE SEAT IN

CONGRESS.

IN THE SOUTHERN TIER, 14-YEAR

INCUMBENT CONGRESSMAN AMO

HOUGHTON WORRIES THEY'LL SLICE

UP WESTERN NEW YORK IN A

VERTICAL FASHION, FAVORING

MORE URBAN AREAS AND

ELIMINATING THE INTERESTS OF

HIS RURAL CONSTITUENTS ALONG

THE BORDER OF PENNSYLVANIA.

>> BECAUSE I WON'T BE AROUND

IN 50 YEARS, BUT THIS DISTRICT

WILL, AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT

WILL IT BE?

IS IT GOING TO BE A BACKWATER

OF A LARGER UPSTATE CITY OR IS

IT GOING TO BE A PROUD

DISTRICT IN ITS OWN?

SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMEBODY

WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT THE TONE

IS AND WHAT THE VIBES ARE.

SO IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT

THAT WE TAKE A LOOK AND

PROTECT OURSELVES, AND IF WE

DON'T, NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO

DO IT.

>> WE WANT TO PRESENT THAT TO

THE GOVERNOR, JOE BRUNO AND

SHELLY SILVER, TO MAKE THEM

UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS AN

IMPORTANT AREA.

WE WANT TO KEEP IT THE WAY IT

IS!

(Music)

>> Gary Walker: I'M GARY

WALKER AND YOU ARE WATCHING

"NEED TO KNOW."

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

REAPPORTIONMENT AND

REDISTRICTING.

THIS YEAR'S LOSS MAY BE THE

TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

PROJECTIONS INDICATE IN

ANOTHER TEN YEARS, IF CURRENT

POPULATION TRENDS CONTINUE,

NEW YORK STATE COULD LOSE UP

TO ANOTHER FIVE HOUSE SEATS,

THE HIGHEST PROJECTED LOSS IN

THE NATION.

JOINING ME IN STUDIO ARE

SENATOR JIM ALESI, WHO

REPRESENTS THE 55th SENATORIAL

DISTRICT; ASSEMBLYMAN DAVID

GANTT, REPRESENTING THE 103rd

-- 133rd ASSEMBLY DISTRICT.

I'LL GET THAT OUT.

Mr. GANTT ALSO HEADED UP THE

REDISTRICTING EFFORTS FOR THE

STATE ASSEMBLY TEN YEARS AGO.

WE'RE ALSO JOINED BY BLAIR

HORNER FROM NYPIRG, THE NEW

YORK PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH

GROUP, WHO KEEPS A WATCH ON

STATE ISSUES.

GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR

COMING.

THANK YOU FOR COMING ALL THE

WAY FROM ALBANY, Mr. HORNER,

AS WELL AS OUR TWO

REPRESENTATIVES HERE.

LOTS TO TALK ABOUT, BUT LET ME

START HERE:

FROM A CITIZEN'S POINT OF

VIEW, HOW WOULD THE LOSS OF

THE TWO CONGRESSIONAL SEATS,

THE SHIFT OF POPULATION TO

DOWNSTATE HAVE A REAL EFFECT

ON THE REPRESENTATION HERE IN

WESTERN NEW YORK?

>> WELL, IT ESSENTIALLY MEANS

THAT THE REPRESENTATION SHIFTS

THAT WAY, BUT THE OTHER THING

IS THAT WE WILL LOSE TWO

SEATS, AND THAT SIMPLY MEANS

WE HAVE LESS POWER IN THE

OVERALL STRUCTURE OF THE HOUSE

THAN WE DO NOW.

THAT OBVIOUSLY HURTS GIVEN THE

FACT THAT, PARTICULARLY IN MY

AREA OF TRANSPORTATION, WHEN

WE HAVE THE BIG BATTLE OF

ABOUT WHAT WE DO AFTER...

>> Gary Walker: WHICH MEANS

LARGER DISTRICTS, RIGHT?

LARGER DISTRICTS AND FEWER

REPRESENTATIVES.

>> YES.

>> WELL, THERE'S ANOTHER

CONSIDERATION THERE.

YOU LOOK AT THIS AS A CLOUT

ISSUE, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING

ABOUT THE COUNTY LEGISLATURE,

THE STATE LEGISLATURE OR

CONGRESS.

BUT IN CONGRESS, THERE ARE SO

MANY OTHER ISSUES, INCLUDING A

BIG ONE FOR NEW YORK STATE,

AND THAT IS MEDICAID

REIMBURSEMENT.

A HUGE AMOUNT OF MEDICAID

MONEY BEING GENERATED OUT OF

OUR OPERATIONS IN NEW YORK

STATE BUT NOT ENOUGH COMING

BACK.

AND WHEN YOU LOSE THAT CLOUT,

YOU LOSE THAT VOICE IN

WASHINGTON THAT HELPS THIS

STATE, WHICH IS SO UNIQUE IN

THE SERVICES THAT IT PROVIDES,

AT GREAT EXPENSE.

>> Gary Walker: IT'S AN

ABSOLUTE POLITICAL ISSUE AND

REAL ISSUE, AS YOU'RE TALKING

ABOUT.

NOT THAT POLITICS AREN'T REAL,

BUT I MEAN IT REALLY HAS A

LIFE IN BOTH PLACES.

BLAIR, I WAS WONDERING, I WAS

GOING TO ASK YOU HERE: THE

SHIFT OF POPULATION TOWARD NEW

YORK CITY WITHIN THE STATE,

WHAT DOES THAT BODE FOR THE

SENATE AND ASSEMBLY DISTRICTS

HERE?

WILL THERE BE, AGAIN, LARGER

DISTRICTS AND FEWER STATE

LAWMAKERS CENTRED HERE?

>> WELL, WHEN YOU HAVE

POPULATION SHIFTS,

PARTICULARLY FROM UPSTATE TO

DOWNSTATE, WHICH WE HAVE IN

NEW YORK, THE DISTRICTS

UPSTATE WILL GET BIGGER

BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO STILL

HAVE TO HAVE ROUGHLY 300,000

PEOPLE IN THE STATE SENATE

SEATS AND ROUGHLY 126,000,

127,000 IN THE ASSEMBLY SEATS.

AND SO THE UPSTATE DISTRICTS

WILL, IN A SENSE, KIND OF

MIGRATE EASTWARD AND SOUTHWARD

TO TRY TO PICK UP POPULATIONS

SO THAT THE DISTRICTS ARE OF

COMPARABLE SIZE.

THE COUNTIES THAT HAVE HAD THE

BIGGEST POPULATION GROWTH HAVE

BEEN MANHATTAN AND SUFFOLK

COUNTY, AND SO THE TUG WILL GO

DOWNSTATE AND I THINK WE'LL

SHIFT POPULATION

REPRESENTATION OUT OF THE

LEGISLATURE.

OUR PREDICTION IS THAT ONE

STATE SENATE SEAT AND TWO

ASSEMBLY SEATS WILL BE PICKED

UP DOWNSTATE AT THE EXPENSE OF

UPSTATE.

NOW, HOW THAT ALL WORKS OUT,

OF COURSE, WILL BE LEFT TO THE

ARTISTS TO MY LEFT AND RIGHT,

BUT IT WILL BE TUGGED IN THAT

DIRECTION.

>> Gary Walker: ALSO THEIR

INFLUENCE IN ALBANY AND THEIR

VOTES AS WELL.

SO PEOPLE UPSTATE -- THERE'S

ALWAYS BEEN THIS

UPSTATE/DOWNSTATE DIVIDE

ANYWAY, BUT IT'S CLEARLY GOING

TO BE MORE REPRESENTATION FOR

DOWNSTATE BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> WELL, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT

THE WRONG THING TO HAVE HAPPEN

BECAUSE OF THE ONE PERSON/ONE

VOTE PRINCIPLE.

IF THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE

DOWNSTATE, THEN THEY SHOULD

HAVE MORE REPRESENTATION.

>> Gary Walker: WHAT ABOUT --

LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR

INDIVIDUAL DISTRICTS.

IT'S GOING TO HAVE AN EFFECT

ON BOTH OF YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE

GOING TO HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT

OF CONSTITUENTS, JUST A LARGER

AREA IN THERE.

AND NOT TO PAINT THE ISSUE

BECAUSE IT'S INCONVENIENT FOR

THE INDIVIDUAL LAWMAKER, BUT

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CARRY

AREAS THAT YOU HAVE NOT

REPRESENTED IN THE PAST, IF

YOU ARE TO RUN, OR SOME FOLKS

YOU HAVE NOT REPRESENTED IN

THE PAST, AND ALSO IT COULD BE

A LARGER AREA AND PARTICULARLY

I KNOW LIKE TEN YEARS AGO, WE

WERE AGHAST THAT MONROE

COUNTY'S BORDER WAS BRIDGED IN

ONE ASSEMBLY DISTRICT WITH

LIVINGSTON COUNTY.

IF ANYTHING, THAT'S GOING TO

BE THE CASE.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE MAYBE

SOME MORE RURAL AREAS GOING TO

HAVE TO BE JOINED IN WITH SOME

MORE URBAN AREAS.

[continued in next column]

[continued from left column]

>> Gary Walker: THE PROCESS IS

THIS: THE STATE ASSEMBLY,

WHICH IS A DEMOCRATIC

ASSEMBLY, BY WHATEVER PROCESS

IT IS, THEY CUT ALL THE

ASSEMBLY DISTRICTS, AND THE

STATE SENATE, BEING A

REPUBLICAN BODY, CUTS ALL THE

SENATE DISTRICTS, AND THEY CUT

THEM IN SUCH A WAY THAT THEY

WILL PERPETUATE THEIR

MAJORITY.

NOW YOU CAN THINK ABOUT THAT

HOWEVER YOU WANT TO THINK

ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU HAVE TO BE AWFULLY

CAREFUL WITH THAT SEAT

THAT JIM REPRESENTS RIGHT NOW.

\W ????

THAT'S WHERE THEY THOUGHT ANNE

DUNNE -- IN FACT MARY ELLEN

JONES WON THE SEAT, THEN

DECIDED TO RETIRE AND GO ON TO

DO SOMETHING ELSE.

SO THAT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK ON

BEHALF OF THOSE WHO THINK

THEY'RE CUTTING THE SEATS TO

THEIR ADVANTAGE.

>> Gary: BUT IT IS THE INTENT,

THOUGH; IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

>> I WOULD NOT NECESSARILY SAY

THAT.

THIS IS A POLITICAL PROCESS,

GARY.

I SAID THAT BEFORE AND I SAY

IT AGAIN, AND INCUMBENCY IS

NOT SOMETHING THAT ONE OUGHT

TO SHY AWAY FROM.

THE FACT IS THAT IN OUR HOUSE,

WE WILL TRY AND CUT THE

DISTRICT AS BEST WE CAN TO

REPRESENT ONE MAN, ONE VOTE,

AND SURE, IT'S A POLITICAL

PROCESS; SO, THEREFORE,

INCUMBENTS SOMETIMES ARE

PROTECTED.

>> WE MENTIONED SOMETHING

ABOUT OUR DISTRICTS BEING

DISRUPTED TO SOME EXTENT, MORE

RURAL AREAS BROUGHT IN BECAUSE

THEY'LL BE GEOGRAPHICALLY

LARGER.

THAT MAY NOT NECESSARILY BE

THE CASE WITH US HERE IN THE

MONROE COUNTY REGION.

AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS

THAT WE HAVE NOT LOST

POPULATION IN MONROE COUNTY.

WE HAVE BEEN FAIRLY STABLE.

TO THE EAST OF US, POPULATION

HAS GROWN.

BUT TO THE WEST OF US, IN THE

BUFFALO AREA, THEY HAVE LOST

ABOUT 50,000 PEOPLE.

SO IF THERE'S AN IMPACT THERE,

I WOULD SAY THAT THE IMPACT

WOULD BE FAR GREATER IN THE

BUFFALO AREA, AND DOWNSTATE IN

THE NEW YORK CITY/LONG ISLAND

AREA, GROWTH IN THE NEW YORK

CITY AREA, A LOSS OF

POPULATION IN THE BUFFALO

AREA.

AND THAT MEANS THAT THE

BIGGEST CHANGE AND THE MOST

VISIBLE CHANGE TO A SENATE OR

ASSEMBLY DISTRICT WOULD

PROBABLY BE SEEN ON THE

NEGATIVE SIDE IN BUFFALO BUT

WOULD NOT NECESSARILY IMPACT

US THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED HERE

IN THE MONROE COUNTY AREA.

>> JIM, THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE

CASE, THOUGH, BECAUSE AS YOU

DRAW THE LINES, YOU'LL NOTICE

THAT IT SHIFTS RIGHT ACROSS

NEW YORK STATE, PARTICULARLY

IN THE CONGRESSIONAL LINES.

IF YOU MAKE A CHANGE DOWN

AROUND DUCHESS/PUTNAM COUNTY,

DOWN AROUND IN THAT AREA, AND

WHAT YOU SEE IS THAT SHIFT

COMES HALFWAY ACROSS THE STATE

BECAUSE THE TOWNS ARE MUCH

CLOSER THAN THEY ARE IN THE

ASSEMBLY AND SENATE.

WE HAVE A PLUS OR MINUS 5%

WHICH WE CAN DEAL WITH AND

MAKE THE NUMBERS BALANCE, BUT

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

CONGRESSIONAL LINES, YOU MAKE

A CHANGE NEAR ALBANY, AND THAT

CHANGE MAY COME ALL THE WAY

OVER TO MONROE COUNTY.

AND TYPICALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS

BOTH PARTIES START AT THE TIP

OF LONG ISLAND.

SO AS WE GET TO THE WEST,

WHICH IS WHERE THE LOSS WAS, I

THINK YOU'LL SEE THOSE

DISTRICTS GROW SLIGHTLY, AND

THE DISTRICTS BACK HERE MAY

NOT GROW AS MUCH.

I THINK THEY TYPICALLY DO

THOSE LAST, IF I REMEMBER THE

PROCESS WHEN I WORKED ON IT.

>> THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT I

THINK IT WAS MORE FOCUSED ON

ASSEMBLY AND SENATE DISTRICTS

RATHER THAN CONGRESSIONAL

DISTRICTS.

>> Gary Walker: LET ME ASK

BLAIR HERE BECAUSE ONE OF THE

THINGS HE HAS DONE IN ALBANY

FOR -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY

DECADES NOW, BUT AS A PUBLIC

WATCHDOG GROUP, WHAT DOES

NYPIRG THINK ABOUT THE

REAPPORTIONING PROCESS WE HAVE

NOW?

YOU HAVE BEEN CRITICAL OF SOME

OF THE DISTRICTS BEING

LITERALLY --

>> WELL, THE PROCESS AS BEING

DESCRIBED IS CLEARLY THE

PROCESS, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE

TO BE THIS WAY.

I MEAN OTHER STATES DO IT

ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY.

THE STATE OF IOWA, FOR

EXAMPLE, SAYS YOU CAN'T

CONSIDER THE ADDRESSES OF THE

INCUMBENT LEGISLATORS; YOU

CAN'T LOOK AT PARTY

ENROLLMENTS WHEN YOU'RE

DRAWING UP DISTRICTS, AND THEY

IN FACT HAVE KIND OF A

NON-PARTISAN REDISTRICTING

PROCESS.

SO WHILE IT'S TRUE THAT IN NEW

YORK WE HAVE THE SYSTEM THAT'S

BEING DESCRIBED, IT DOESN'T

HAVE TO BE THAT WAY.

IN FACT, I THINK SOME OF THE

COMMENTS YOU WERE MAKING

EARLIER THAT OFTENTIMES THE

CRITERIA IN TERMS OF HOW THESE

DISTRICTS COME TOGETHER IS TO

MAXIMIZE INCUMBENCY PROTECTION

AND MAXIMIZE MAJORITY STATUS

OF BOTH HOUSES, BUT AGAIN IT

DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY.

SO OUR CRITICISMS HAVE BEEN

MORE IN THE PROCESS OF HOW THE

DISTRICTING PROCESS PLAYS OUT

AND LESS ABOUT INDIVIDUAL

LEGISLATORS.

>> Gary Walker: WELL, LET'S

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

IF I HEARD CRITICISM PREPARING

OUR REPORT, FROM PEOPLE WHO

ARE CRITICAL OF THE PROCESS

THAT WE HAVE NOW, IT'S THAT

THE WHOLE IDEA OF

REDISTRICTING IS TO SHAKE

THINGS UP; IT'S TO GET NEW

BLOOD INTO THE POLITICAL

SYSTEM, TO CHANGE SOME

DISTRICTS AND CHANGE INPUT --

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S

NECESSARILY THE CASE.

THE FACT IS MY CONSTITUENTS,

AND IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY

DIFFERENCE WHETHER I RUN IN

130, 131... IF GIVEN HIS

SCENARIO WHERE YOU DON'T TAKE

THAT INTO CONSIDERATION, MORE

THAN LIKELY PEOPLE IN THIS

COMMUNITY KNOW WHO I AM AND I

WILL STILL HAVE THAT

OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT.

BUT WHAT YOU DO IS YOU THEN

GIVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR STAFF

TO RUN THE SHOW RATHER THAN

HAVE THOSE MEMBERS WHO ARE

ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE TO RUN

THE SHOW.

HE AND I DISAGREE ABOUT THAT.

WE HAVE A RIGHT TO DISAGREE.

I THINK MY CONSTITUENTS ARE

MUCH BETTER OFF HAVING ME

THERE REPRESENTING THEIR

INTERESTS THAN TO HAVE ME OVER

IN ANOTHER DISTRICT

REPRESENTING NEW INTERESTS AND

NOT KNOWING WHAT THOSE ARE,

NOT HAVING LEARNED THOSE, --

THERE IS A LEARNING CURVE TO

IT -- RATHER THAN TO HAVE ME

REPRESENTING THE INTERESTS

THAT I'VE BEEN REPRESENTING.

>> Gary Walker: BUT WOULDN'T

YOU RUN TO THE DISTRICT THAT

TOOK OVER YOUR OLD DISTRICT?

WOULDN'T YOU JUST SAY, "OKAY.

I AM NO LONGER THE 133rd; I'M

THE 132nd."

>> YEAH.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT?

I COULD DO THAT.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MY MOVING

BACK TO THE DISTRICT WHERE I

WAS BEFORE?

>> Gary Walker: WELL, JUST

WHATEVER THE DISTRICT THAT

ENCOMPASSES THE AREA YOU

REPRESENT NOW, YOU WOULD JUST

MOVE TO THAT DISTRICT.

>> BUT REMEMBER SOMETHING.

IN MY OFFICE, I DEAL WITH A

NUMBER OF PROBLEMS, PROBABLY

MANY SOCIAL PROBLEMS THAT

OTHER LEGISLATORS DON'T DEAL

WITH.

THOSE PEOPLE -- YOU KNOW WHAT

I CAN ALMOST GUARANTEE YOU?

THEY WOULD END UP CALLING TO

MY OFFICE, GIVEN THE FACT THAT

I MOVED TO THE OTHER DISTRICT.

IS THAT FAIR TO THE --

>> Gary Walker: I THINK YOU

MISUNDERSTOOD ME.

WHAT I MEANT WAS THAT THE

PEOPLE YOU REPRESENT NOW, IF

THEY WERE REDISTRICTED INTO

ANOTHER DISTRICT, YOU WOULD

JUST SAY, "OKAY, I'M STILL

REPRESENTING THE SAME PEOPLE

BUT MY DISTRICT NUMBER HAS

CHANGED.

THAT'S ALL.

I WON'T RUN IN THE 133rd, BUT

I WILL RUN IN THE 132nd."

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, GARY.

>> Gary: WELL, LET ME ASK YOU

THIS --

>> AGAIN, THE WHOLE IDEA OF

THE CENSUS IN 1770, WHEN THE

FOUNDING FATHERS PUT TOGETHER

THE PROCESS, WAS TO FIGURE OUT

HOW DO YOU HAVE A

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY?

FIRST AND FOREMOST, HOW DO YOU

MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE ARE

REPRESENTED ADEQUATELY IN

CONGRESS, THAT THEY REPRESENT

YOUR LOCAL GOVERNMENT?

I THINK IF YOU ACTUALLY SET UP

A PROCESS THAT FOCUSED MORE

ON, AS A PRIORITY, THE

COMMUNITY LINES, THE

COMPACTNESS FIRST AND

FOREMOST, AND THEN LOOK AT

OTHER STATES.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN IOWA, THE

LEGISLATORS ULTIMATELY ARE THE

PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO VOTE ON

WHAT THE LINES ARE, BUT IF YOU

TAKE OUT OF THE PROCESS SOME

OF THE POLITICAL INFORMATION,

MAYBE YOU WOULD HAVE A MORE

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

>> Gary Walker: LET ME ASK ONE

BIG QUESTION.

LET'S SAY NEW YORK STATE DID

WHAT SOME OTHER STATES DO AND

HAVE A JUDGE OR EVEN POLITICAL

SCIENTISTS REDRAW THE

DISTRICTS.

DO YOU HONESTLY THINK WE WOULD

HAVE A BIG CHANGE IN THE

MAJORITY OR MINORITY STATUS OF

THE HOUSES OR IN THE NUMBER OF

LEGISLATORS WHO WERE DEFEATED

AS INCUMBENTS IF THEY WERE

DEFEATED DRAWN STRICTLY ON A

CONTIGUOUS BASIS OR WITHOUT

USING ANY POLITICAL

INFORMATION?

>> I THINK IN SOME PARTS OF

THE STATE THERE ARE MORE

TELEPHONE POLES THAN THERE ARE

REPUBLICANS.

IN SOME PARTS OF THE STATE,

THERE ARE MORE COWS THAN THERE

ARE DEMOCRATS.

IN SOME PARTS OF THE STATE,

THERE'S NOTHING THAT CAN BE

DONE.

IT'S JUST THE WAY PEOPLE ARE.

THEY REGISTER IN ONE PARTY.

THAT'S FINE.

BUT I THINK THERE WOULD BE

MORE COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS.

I DON'T THINK THERE WOULD BE A

SIGNIFICANT CHANGE NECESSARILY

IN THE NUMBERS OF DISTRICTS

WHERE THERE'S -- FOR EXAMPLE,

IN THE SENATE, OF THE 61

SENATE SEATS, 29 OF THEM HAVE

REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES.

WHERE THEY MAKE UP THE

DIFFERENCE REALLY IS THEIR

CAMPAIGN FINANCE ADVANTAGES

THAT THEY HAVE OVER THE

DEMOCRATS.

SAME THING IN THE ASSEMBLY.

YOU HAVE A 5-3

DEMOCRAT-TO-REPUBLICAN

ENROLLMENT ADVANTAGE AND

ROUGHLY SOMEWHERE IN THE LOW

90s IS BASICALLY THE NUMBER OF

DISTRICTS THAT THEY HAVE AN

ADVANTAGE IN AND THEY MAKE UP

THE DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF

THEIR CAMPAIGN FINANCE --

>> Gary Walker: SO THE

INNER-PARTY COMPETITIVENESS --

>> WELL, THERE MAY BE MORE

DISTRICTS THAT ARE MORE

COMPETITIVE, BUT IT MIGHT NOT

CHANGE IF YOU JUST BREAK DOWN

THE NUMBERS OF HOW MANY

DISTRICTS ONE PARTY HAS AN

ADVANTAGE IN OVER --

>> GARY, I THINK IT'S

IMPORTANT TO MENTION ONE THING

HERE.

YOU SAID THAT THE PURPOSE

BEHIND REDISTRICTING WAS TO

SHAKE THINGS UP --

>> Gary Walker: NO, IT'S SOME

OF THE CRITICISMS I HAVE HEARD

ABOUT OUR PARTICULAR PROCESS,

YOU KNOW.

THEY WANT, YOU KNOW, TO GET

DISTRICTS MORE COMPETITIVE.

>> THAT WOULD BE THE LAST

COMPELLING REASON I CAN THINK

OF TO HAVE REDISTRICTING.

REALLY THE WHOLE THRUST BEHIND

REDISTRICTING IS SIMPLY THE

ONE PERSON/ONE VOTE, TO MAKE

SURE THAT THERE'S PROPER

REPRESENTATION.

BUT SIMPLY TO DO THIS TO SHAKE

THINGS UP OR TO JUST GIVE

OTHER PEOPLE A BETTER CHANCE

AT RUNNING AND WINNING RACES

SHOULD NOT REALLY BE THE

REASON FOR REDISTRICTING.

IT SHOULD BE FOR PERFECT

REPRESENTATION OR AS NEAR

PERFECT AS YOU CAN GET.

AND THAT'S WHY THE SYSTEM THAT

WE HAVE DOES WORK, EVEN THOUGH

IT'S VERY POLITICAL

BECAUSE, AS OPPOSED TO OTHER

STATES, YOU HAVE NEW YORK

STATE, WHICH IS SO POLITICAL

OF A STATE IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE HAVE

A PLACE CALLED NEW YORK CITY

WHICH IS FAR DIFFERENT THAN

ANYPLACE ELSE, AND WHEN YOU

TALK ABOUT UPSTATE, DOWNSTATE,

IF WE JUST DID IT THE WAY

ANOTHER STATE DID IT, WITH

TOTAL ANONYMITY AS FAR AS WHO

IS RUNNING AND REPRESENTING

THINGS, THEN YOU WOULDN'T HAVE

THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THOSE

PEOPLE TO BE REPRESENTED BY

SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THEM AND

UNDERSTANDS THEM, THE WAY

DAVID MENTIONED THAT HE KNOWS

AND UNDERSTANDS HIS

CONSTITUENTS, AND THE WAY THAT

I DO.

>> Gary Walker: BUT YOU HAVE

TO ADMIT SOME OF THOSE

DISTRICTS ARE PRETTY WACKY

LOOKING WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE

MAP.

>> YEAH, BUT, GARY, A LOT OF

THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE NEW

YORK STATE CONSTITUTION WHICH

SAYS YOU CAN'T BREAK UP A

TOWN.

SO BASED UPON THAT TOWN, YOU

HAVE TO TAKE THE WHOLE TOWN,

SO THAT HELPS TO MAKE SOME OF

THOSE DISTRICTS FUNNY LOOKING.

>> Gary Walker: LET ME, IN THE

TIME WE HAVE LEFT, AND, BLAIR,

I KNOW YOU WANT TO COMMENT ON

THIS, BECAUSE IN REALITY WHEN

YOU LOOK AT THE JOB THAT THE

HEAD OF THE SENATE AND THE

ASSEMBLY ON THIS, YOU CAN'T

DISCOUNT THE PRESSURES THERE

ARE FOR DISTRICTS OF MINORITY

INTERESTS, RURAL INTERESTS,

URBAN INTERESTS.

BALANCING ALL OF THEM HAS GOT

TO GIVE A WOODPECKER A

HEADACHE.

>> VERY TRUE.

WHEN THIS PROCESS STARTED BACK

IN 18-WHATEVER IT WAS, THE

FACT IS THAT THE MINORITIES

THAT ARE AROUND TODAY WERE NOT

AROUND.

AND IF WE ARE GOING TO PROTECT

THE INTERESTS OF ALL THE

PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THIS STATE

AND IN THIS COUNTRY, WE MUST

TAKE ALL THOSE THINGS INTO

CONSIDERATION.

IF NOT, THEN WHAT HAPPENS IS,

AS I HAVE ALWAYS SAID, YOU

TAKE THIS SMALL PIECE OF THE

MINORITY COMMUNITY AND PUT IT

IN WITH -- WHERE THE

DISTRICT'S DIFFERENT,

TYPICALLY IT'S DEMOCRAT, SO

YOU PUT THEM IN WITH THAT.

THAT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE

INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE WHO I

NORMALLY REPRESENT.

AND I WOULD NOT BE IN FAVOR

OF SOMETHING THAT DID EXACTLY

THAT.

IN TERMS OF THE CONGRESSIONAL

DISTRICTS, LET ME REMIND ALL

OF US WHO SIT AT THIS TABLE,

IT WAS THE COURT'S DISTRICTS

THAT WE USED LAST TIME.

IT WAS NOT EITHER OURS IN THE

ASSEMBLY OR THE SENATE'S.

WE TOOK THE COURT'S DISTRICTS

AND PUT THE LINES IN PLACE.

>> JUST TO STRENGTHEN THAT

POINT, THE CONSTITUTION ALSO

SAYS YOU CAN'T DIVIDE A COUNTY

UP, BUT MORE THAN HALF OF THE

COUNTIES ARE DIVIDED BECAUSE

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYS

THEY HAVE TO BE IN ORDER FOR

PURE REPRESENTATION.

>> Gary Walker: WE ONLY HAVE A

MINUTE LEFT AND I WANT TO ASK

A QUICK QUESTION.

WHAT ROLE SHOULD THE PUBLIC

HAVE?

DOES THE PUBLIC HAVE ENOUGH

ROLE IN THIS PROCESS?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THE PUBLIC

HAS A REAL NECESSARY ROLE

BECAUSE IT'S A LEGISLATIVE

PROCESS.

THE LEGISLATURE GIVES THE

AUTHORITY TO START AND APPROVE

THAT PROCESS TO A COMMISSION.

>> Gary: BLAIR?

>> NO, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE

MORE.

I THINK WITH THE ADVANCES IN

TECHNOLOGY, IF THE LEGISLATURE

AGREES, THEY SHOULD BE POSTING

AN INTERACTIVE WEB SITE NEXT

WEEK TO START PUTTING UP THE

INFORMATION UP THERE SO THE

PUBLIC CAN START TO SEE HOW

THIS PROCESS UNFOLDS.

>> BLAIR, THEY CAN'T PUT THE

INFORMATION UP.

THEY DON'T HAVE THAT

INFORMATION, SO I DON'T WANT

YOU TO SIT HERE AND TELL

PEOPLE THAT THERE'S

INFORMATION THERE.

IS IT THE -- (indecipherable)

-- NUMBER ONE?

NUMBER TWO IS I DISAGREE WITH

YOU WHEN YOU SAY THE PUBLIC

DOESN'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO

HAVE INPUT.

WE HELD PUBLIC HEARINGS ALL

OVER THE STATE; WE HAD

COMPUTERS IN LIBRARIES, AND I

WOULD THINK THAT WE'RE GOING

TO DO THE SAME THING THIS

TIME.

THE UNFORTUNATE THING IS THERE

ARE SOME PEOPLE SUCH AS

YOURSELF WHO WOULD LIKE TO

HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER THE

PROCESS THAN YOU DO.

I THINK IT'S A LEGISLATIVE

PROCESS.

I THINK YOU OUGHT TO BE

WATCH-DOGGING US, BUT WE OUGHT

TO TAKE CARE OF THE BUSINESS.

>> Gary Walker: ONE OF THOSE

PEOPLE IS PROBABLY THE

GOVERNOR.

WE DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO TALK

ABOUT HIS PROPOSAL.

WE COULD PROBABLY TALK ABOUT

IT FOR AN HOUR, BUT I WANT TO

THANK MY GUESTS FOR TAKING ALL

THE TIME.

THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS

WEEK.

JOIN US NEXT WEEK FOR A

PROGRAM ON COMPUTER CRIME.

WE'LL TELL YOU WHO'S HACKING

WHO AND HOW YOU CAN AVOID

BEING HACKED YOURSELF.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

(Music)

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