>>
Gary Walker: JUST AHEAD ON "NEED TO KNOW," NEW YORK WILL HAVE
LESS OF A VOICE IN WASHINGTON, AND UPSTATE MAY HAVE LESS OF
A VOICE IN ALBANY. WHY? REAPPORTIONMENT, ALSO KNOWN AS REDISTRICTING.
SOME OF US ARE NOT AS FAMILIAR WITH IT FOR GOOD REASON: IT HAPPENS
ONLY EVERY TEN YEARS. AND THIS YEAR, LAWMAKERS ARE DRAWING LINES
THAT WILL DETERMINE WHO REPRESENTS YOU IN CONGRESS, ALBANY,
AND IN MONROE COUNTY. COMING UP, WE'LL EXPLAIN REAPPORTIONMENT
AND WHY YOU SHOULD CARE. IT'S ALL AHEAD ON "NEED TO KNOW."
>>
IT'S HOW YOU APPORTION POWER IN THE CONGRESSIONAL AND STATE
LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.
>>
THIS IS "NEED TO KNOW," THE ROCHESTER AREA'S ONLY IN-DEPTH NEWS
PROGRAM. "NEED TO KNOW" IS A PRODUCTION OF WXXI NEWS AND PUBLIC
AFFAIRS, COVERING ISSUES, POLITICS, EDUCATION AND CURRENT EVENTS.
>>
"NEED TO KNOW" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE DAISY MARQUIS JONES FOUNDATION,
BY DORSCHEL LEXUS, AND THROUGH THE SUPPORT OF VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
(Music)
>>
Gary Walker: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. I'M GARY WALKER. LAST
YEAR THERE WAS A LOT OF PUBLICITY OVER CENSUS 2000, AND THIS
YEAR WE SEE WHY WE HAVE A CENSUS IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE PROCESS
OF REAPPORTIONMENT. CHANGES IN POPULATION CARRY A POLITICAL
WEIGHT IN DETERMINING DISTRICT SIZE. EVERY TEN YEARS, AFTER
THE CENSUS COUNT, THE LINES OF THE STATE SENATE AND ASSEMBLY
AS WELL AS CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS ARE REDRAWN, WHICH IS NOT
GOOD NEWS THIS DECADE FOR NEW YORK STATE IN GENERAL AND UPSTATE
IN PARTICULAR. THIS YEAR'S CENSUS REPORTS CAME BACK SHOWING
A TREND OF NORTH AND EAST EXODUS; POPULATIONS ARE MOVING SOUTH
AND WEST. HERE'S HOW THE NUMBERS BREAK DOWN: NEW YORK STATE
TOOK ONE OF THE HARDEST HITS. OF THE NATION'S 435 HOUSE DISTRICTS,
RIGHT NOW NEW YORK HAS 31 SEATS. AFTER THE LINES ARE REDRAWN,
WE WILL LOSE 2, DROPPING US DOWN TO 29 SEATS, GIVING US LARGER
DISTRICTS AND LESS CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATION. JUST THIS WEEK,
GOVERNOR PATAKI ANNOUNCED PLANS TO SPEND $2 MILLION ON A REAPPORTIONMENT
STUDY FOR NEW YORK STATE. HIS PLAN INVOLVES REDRAWING ALL 211
LEGISLATIVE AND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS AS WELL AS RESHAPING
CONGRESSIONAL BORDERS TO ACCOMMODATE THE LOSS OF THE TWO CONGRESSIONAL
SEATS. PATAKI'S PLAN DREW NEGATIVE RESPONSE FROM BOTH DEMOCRATS
AND REPUBLICANS, SAYING REAPPORTIONMENT IS A POWER DELEGATED
TO THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND THE FUNDS WOULD BE BETTER USED
TO BOOST UPSTATE ECONOMY. FOR A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT
IS AT STAKE, WXXI NEWS PRODUCED A REPORT ON THE BASICS OF REAPPORTIONMENT.
>>
Jennifer Reed: AS THE CROW FLIES EAST TO WEST, NEW YORK STATE
COVERS 47,000 SQUARE MILES. CENSUS NUMBERS SHOW US AT JUST OVER
18 MILLION PEOPLE, AND AS THE TASK OF REAPPORTIONING NEW YORK
STATE REPRESENTATION APPROACHES, GEOGRAPHY TURNS INTO A STATEWIDE
GRID OF POLITICAL POSSIBILITIES AND PERIL.
>>
POLITICAL GRIDLOCK GUARANTEED.
>>
REDISTRICTING FAIRNESS, LIKE BEAUTY, IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER.
>>
I DON'T THINK THE MINORITY COMMUNITY SHOULD GET ANY MORE THAN
IT DESERVES, BUT I THINK IT AT LEAST SHOULD GET THE OPPORTUNITY
TO GET WHAT IT DESERVES.
>> IF I COULD DRAW MY OWN LINES, THAT WOULD BE VERY NICE WITH
ME.
>>
Jennifer Reed: IT IS A SENSITIVE AND COMPELLING SUBJECT AMONG
LAWMAKERS. PRELIMINARY CENSUS REPORTS INDICATE A LOSS OF POPULATION
IN WESTERN NEW YORK BUT GAINS IN NUMBERS NEARER TO NEW YORK
CITY. AND WHILE THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS WILL ULTIMATELY REFLECT
A SHIFT IN REPRESENTATION BASED ON THOSE NUMBERS, IT'S ALSO
WEIGHTED HEAVILY IN POLITICS. REAPPORTIONMENT, AS DESCRIBED
IN "THE AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY," IS REDISTRIBUTION OF
REPRESENTATION IN A LEGISLATIVE BODY ACCORDING TO CHANGES IN
THE CENSUS FIGURES AS REQUIRED BY THE CONSTITUTION. BLAIR HORNER
WORKS WITH NYPIRG, THE NEW YORK PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP.
>>
STARTING IN THE LATE 1700s, THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRED THAT EVERY
TEN YEARS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TAKE A CENSUS OF ALL THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS AND AS A RESULT OF THAT CENSUS THEN
APPORTION OR COME UP WITH DISTRICTS FOR THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS,
STATE GOVERNMENT, LOCAL GOVERNMENT, SO THAT THE PUBLIC COULD
BE ADEQUATELY REPRESENTED IN A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.
>>
Jennifer Reed: WHAT BEGAN AS A SIMPLE STRATEGY OF REPRESENTING
CONSTITUENTS, REAPPORTIONMENT HAS DEVELOPED INTO A POLITICAL
POWERHOUSE. ASSEMBLYMAN RON CANESTRARI IS A DEMOCRATIC TASK
FORCE CO-CHAIR.
>> IT'S AN EXCITING ASSIGNMENT. LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY. AND WE'VE
BEEN KIND OF GETTING READY FOR THE BIG EVENT.
>>
Jennifer Reed: IT SEEMS STRAIGHTFORWARD ENOUGH: CENSUS RESULTS
COME IN, NUMBERS GO OUT, AND DECISIONS ARE MADE.
>>
IT'S ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISIONS WHICH SAID THAT EACH
DISTRICT, WHETHER CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, STATE ASSEMBLY OR
STATE SENATE, MUST BASICALLY BE ONE PERSON/ONE VOTE. AND THE
RESULT OF THE CHANGE OF CENSUS, WE MUST CHANGE DISTRICT LINES
ACCORDINGLY.
>>
Jennifer Reed: BUT IT'S THE INTERPRETATION OF THOSE CENSUS NUMBERS
AND DEMOGRAPHIC INFORMATION THAT CAN ALTER DISTRICT LINES, DEPENDING
ON YOUR POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW. THE IDEA WAS BORN IN 1811 BY
MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR ELBRIDGE GERRY.
>>
WE FIRST START TO FIGURE OUT THAT MAYBE WITHIN COUNTIES WE CAN
START DEVELOPING LINES THAT WILL GIVE OUR POLITICAL PARTIES
ONE ADVANTAGE OVER ANOTHER OR TRY TO BREAK UP THE POPULATION
IN A WAY THAT SOMEHOW MAXIMIZES PARTISAN ADVANTAGE.
>>
Jennifer Reed: BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE INCUMBENCY ISSUE IS A
LEGALLY LEGITIMATE BIAS TO CONSIDER WHEN REDISTRICTING.
>>
THE POLITICS IN TERMS OF AN INCUMBENCY, THE COURT HAS RECOGNIZED
THAT INCUMBENCY AND SENIORITY PAY OFF TO A STATE, PAY OFF TO
A DISTRICT. SO CONSISTENT WITH OTHER GUIDELINES, WE CAN RESPECT
THAT CONSISTENT WITH OTHER GUIDELINES.
>>
WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THOSE WHO CONTROL THE PROCESS, WHICH IN
THIS INSTANCE ARE THE DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY IN THE ASSEMBLY, WHAT
THEY DO IS THEY PACK AS MANY REPUBLICANS AS THEY CAN INTO A
SMALLER NUMBER OF DISTRICTS AND DIVIDE UP AREAS OF REPUBLICAN
STRENGTH.
>>
Jennifer Reed: A LOOK AT THE CURRENT DISTRICT MAPS DOES MAKE
ONE WONDER: HOW DO THEY COME TO LOOK THIS WAY?
>>
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S THE POPULATION, ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE.
EACH DISTRICT HAS TO BE ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT TO THE OTHER SO THAT
YOU HAVE AN EQUAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN EACH DISTRICT SO THE VOTE
OF THEIR REPRESENTATIVES IS ROUGHLY REPRESENTING AN EQUAL NUMBER
OF PEOPLE. BUT IT ALSO IS ABOUT -- THAT'S THE TEXTBOOK DEFINITION.
IT'S ALSO ABOUT POWER. IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU APPORTION POWER IN
THE CONGRESSIONAL AND STATE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.
>>
Jennifer Reed: HERE'S HOW IT WORKS: A SIX-PERSON LEGISLATIVE
TASK FORCE ON DEMOGRAPHIC RESEARCH AND REAPPORTIONMENT IS APPOINTED
BY THE LEADERS OF EACH HOUSE. THE DEMOCRATS, AS RULING PARTY
IN THE ASSEMBLY, GET TWO VOTES TO THE REPUBLICANS' ONE. THE
REPUBLICANS, ON THE OTHER HAND, HAVE CONTROL OF THE SENATE,
SO THE VOTING IS REVERSED. DISTRICT LINES ARE DEBATED, DRAWN
AND REDRAWN WITH INPUT FROM COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS AND FELLOW
LEGISLATORS WHOSE DISTRICTS ARE ULTIMATELY DECIDED BY THE COMMITTEE.
>>
YOU PUT YOUR FATE IN SOMEONE ELSE'S HANDS ON THIS ISSUE. IT
IS A LOT LIKE BEING A NERVOUS FLIER. BUT IN THE LONG RUN, WE
WILL LAND, NO MATTER WHAT. WHAT GOES UP COMES BACK DOWN. FOR
MOST OF US THERE WILL BE A SAFE LANDING. IT SHOULDN'T BE DRAMATIC
CHANGES, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO DESIGN MY OWN DISTRICT. THERE'S
NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT DISTRICT, BUT SOME ARE MORE PERFECT
THAN OTHERS.
>> IT'S A POLITICAL PROCESS; THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT. BUT
WITHIN THE PROCESS YOU TRY TO BE AS FAIR AS YOU CAN AS TO WHAT
YOU DO IN THE REAPPORTIONMENT PROCESS. AS I SAY, YOU HAVE A
NUMBER OF INTERESTS. YOU HAVE THE PUERTO RICAN LEGAL DEFENSE
FUND; YOU'VE GOT THE NAACP; YOU'VE GOT NEIGHBOURHOOD GROUPS
IN NEW YORK CITY; YOU HAVE NEIGHBOURHOOD GROUPS UP HERE; YOU
HAVE INDIVIDUALS WHO COME IN TO TALK TO YOU... SO YOU HAVE TO
TRY AND WEIGH ALL THAT INFORMATION, BUT IN THE END IT'S STILL
A POLITICAL PROCESS AND YOU MAKE THE PROCESS AS FAIR AS YOU
CAN.
>> Jennifer Reed: A MUCH BANTERED ABOUT ISSUE HAS BEEN THE RIGHTS
AND REPRESENTATION OF MINORITIES ACROSS THE STATE, ESPECIALLY
IN NEW YORK CITY. GENUINE CONCERN OR GENUINE POLITICS?
>>
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST TWO DECADES IS THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT,
WHICH DID MANDATE PROTECTING MINORITY VOTERS' RIGHTS, WAS USED
IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE ONE-PERSON/ONE-VOTE STANDARD AS A LICENSE
TO GERRYMANDER, AND THE ADVENT OF COMPUTERS MADE IT AN ALMOST
PERFECT ART.
>>
Jennifer Reed: FROM BROOKLYN TO BUFFALO, RIPPLES IN REPRESENTATION
WILL AFFECT NEARLY EVERY ASSEMBLY, SENATE AND CONGRESSIONAL
DISTRICT. EARLY CENSUS FIGURES INDICATE A LOSS OF AT LEAST ONE
SEAT IN CONGRESS. IN THE SOUTHERN TIER, 14-YEAR INCUMBENT CONGRESSMAN
AMO HOUGHTON WORRIES THEY'LL SLICE UP WESTERN NEW YORK IN A
VERTICAL FASHION, FAVORING MORE URBAN AREAS AND ELIMINATING
THE INTERESTS OF HIS RURAL CONSTITUENTS ALONG THE BORDER OF
PENNSYLVANIA.
>> BECAUSE I WON'T BE AROUND IN 50 YEARS, BUT THIS DISTRICT
WILL, AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL IT BE? IS IT GOING TO BE
A BACKWATER OF A LARGER UPSTATE CITY OR IS IT GOING TO BE A
PROUD DISTRICT IN ITS OWN? SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMEBODY WHO
UNDERSTANDS WHAT THE TONE IS AND WHAT THE VIBES ARE. SO IT'S
VERY, VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE TAKE A LOOK AND PROTECT OURSELVES,
AND IF WE DON'T, NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT. >> WE WANT TO
PRESENT THAT TO THE GOVERNOR, JOE BRUNO AND SHELLY SILVER, TO
MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT AREA. WE WANT
TO KEEP IT THE WAY IT IS!
(Music)
>> Gary Walker: I'M GARY WALKER AND YOU ARE WATCHING "NEED TO
KNOW." WE'RE TALKING ABOUT REAPPORTIONMENT AND REDISTRICTING.
THIS YEAR'S LOSS MAY BE THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. PROJECTIONS
INDICATE IN ANOTHER TEN YEARS, IF CURRENT POPULATION TRENDS
CONTINUE, NEW YORK STATE COULD LOSE UP TO ANOTHER FIVE HOUSE
SEATS, THE HIGHEST PROJECTED LOSS IN THE NATION. JOINING ME
IN STUDIO ARE SENATOR JIM ALESI, WHO REPRESENTS THE 55th SENATORIAL
DISTRICT; ASSEMBLYMAN DAVID GANTT, REPRESENTING THE 103rd --
133rd ASSEMBLY DISTRICT. I'LL GET THAT OUT. Mr. GANTT ALSO HEADED
UP THE REDISTRICTING EFFORTS FOR THE STATE ASSEMBLY TEN YEARS
AGO. WE'RE ALSO JOINED BY BLAIR HORNER FROM NYPIRG, THE NEW
YORK PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP, WHO KEEPS A WATCH ON STATE
ISSUES. GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR COMING. THANK YOU FOR COMING
ALL THE WAY FROM ALBANY, Mr. HORNER, AS WELL AS OUR TWO REPRESENTATIVES
HERE. LOTS TO TALK ABOUT, BUT LET ME START HERE: FROM A CITIZEN'S
POINT OF VIEW, HOW WOULD THE LOSS OF THE TWO CONGRESSIONAL SEATS,
THE SHIFT OF POPULATION TO DOWNSTATE HAVE A REAL EFFECT ON THE
REPRESENTATION HERE IN WESTERN NEW YORK?
>>
WELL, IT ESSENTIALLY MEANS THAT THE REPRESENTATION SHIFTS THAT
WAY, BUT THE OTHER THING IS THAT WE WILL LOSE TWO SEATS, AND
THAT SIMPLY MEANS WE HAVE LESS POWER IN THE OVERALL STRUCTURE
OF THE HOUSE THAN WE DO NOW. THAT OBVIOUSLY HURTS GIVEN THE
FACT THAT, PARTICULARLY IN MY AREA OF TRANSPORTATION, WHEN WE
HAVE THE BIG BATTLE OF ABOUT WHAT WE DO AFTER...
>>
Gary Walker: WHICH MEANS LARGER DISTRICTS, RIGHT? LARGER DISTRICTS
AND FEWER REPRESENTATIVES.
>>
YES.
>>
WELL, THERE'S ANOTHER CONSIDERATION THERE. YOU LOOK AT THIS
AS A CLOUT ISSUE, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTY LEGISLATURE,
THE STATE LEGISLATURE OR CONGRESS. BUT IN CONGRESS, THERE ARE
SO MANY OTHER ISSUES, INCLUDING A BIG ONE FOR NEW YORK STATE,
AND THAT IS MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT. A HUGE AMOUNT OF MEDICAID
MONEY BEING GENERATED OUT OF OUR OPERATIONS IN NEW YORK STATE
BUT NOT ENOUGH COMING BACK. AND WHEN YOU LOSE THAT CLOUT, YOU
LOSE THAT VOICE IN WASHINGTON THAT HELPS THIS STATE, WHICH IS
SO UNIQUE IN THE SERVICES THAT IT PROVIDES, AT GREAT EXPENSE.
>>
Gary Walker: IT'S AN ABSOLUTE POLITICAL ISSUE AND REAL ISSUE,
AS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. NOT THAT POLITICS AREN'T REAL, BUT
I MEAN IT REALLY HAS A LIFE IN BOTH PLACES. BLAIR, I WAS WONDERING,
I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU HERE: THE SHIFT OF POPULATION TOWARD
NEW YORK CITY WITHIN THE STATE, WHAT DOES THAT BODE FOR THE
SENATE AND ASSEMBLY DISTRICTS HERE? WILL THERE BE, AGAIN, LARGER
DISTRICTS AND FEWER STATE LAWMAKERS CENTRED HERE?
>>
WELL, WHEN YOU HAVE POPULATION SHIFTS, PARTICULARLY FROM UPSTATE
TO DOWNSTATE, WHICH WE HAVE IN NEW YORK, THE DISTRICTS UPSTATE
WILL GET BIGGER BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO STILL HAVE TO HAVE
ROUGHLY 300,000 PEOPLE IN THE STATE SENATE SEATS AND ROUGHLY
126,000, 127,000 IN THE ASSEMBLY SEATS. AND SO THE UPSTATE DISTRICTS
WILL, IN A SENSE, KIND OF MIGRATE EASTWARD AND SOUTHWARD TO
TRY TO PICK UP POPULATIONS SO THAT THE DISTRICTS ARE OF COMPARABLE
SIZE. THE COUNTIES THAT HAVE HAD THE BIGGEST POPULATION GROWTH
HAVE BEEN MANHATTAN AND SUFFOLK COUNTY, AND SO THE TUG WILL
GO DOWNSTATE AND I THINK WE'LL SHIFT POPULATION REPRESENTATION
OUT OF THE LEGISLATURE. OUR PREDICTION IS THAT ONE STATE SENATE
SEAT AND TWO ASSEMBLY SEATS WILL BE PICKED UP DOWNSTATE AT THE
EXPENSE OF UPSTATE. NOW, HOW THAT ALL WORKS OUT, OF COURSE,
WILL BE LEFT TO THE ARTISTS TO MY LEFT AND RIGHT, BUT IT WILL
BE TUGGED IN THAT DIRECTION.
>>
Gary Walker: ALSO THEIR INFLUENCE IN ALBANY AND THEIR VOTES
AS WELL. SO PEOPLE UPSTATE -- THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS UPSTATE/DOWNSTATE
DIVIDE ANYWAY, BUT IT'S CLEARLY GOING TO BE MORE REPRESENTATION
FOR DOWNSTATE BECAUSE OF THAT.
>>
WELL, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT THE WRONG THING TO HAVE HAPPEN BECAUSE
OF THE ONE PERSON/ONE VOTE PRINCIPLE. IF THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE
DOWNSTATE, THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE MORE REPRESENTATION.
>> Gary Walker: WHAT ABOUT -- LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR INDIVIDUAL
DISTRICTS. IT'S GOING TO HAVE AN EFFECT ON BOTH OF YOU BECAUSE
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF CONSTITUENTS, JUST A
LARGER AREA IN THERE. AND NOT TO PAINT THE ISSUE BECAUSE IT'S
INCONVENIENT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL LAWMAKER, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO
HAVE TO CARRY AREAS THAT YOU HAVE NOT REPRESENTED IN THE PAST,
IF YOU ARE TO RUN, OR SOME FOLKS YOU HAVE NOT REPRESENTED IN
THE PAST, AND ALSO IT COULD BE A LARGER AREA AND PARTICULARLY
I KNOW LIKE TEN YEARS AGO, WE WERE AGHAST THAT MONROE COUNTY'S
BORDER WAS BRIDGED IN ONE ASSEMBLY DISTRICT WITH LIVINGSTON
COUNTY. IF ANYTHING, THAT'S GOING TO BE THE CASE. YOU'RE GOING
TO HAVE MAYBE SOME MORE RURAL AREAS GOING TO HAVE TO BE JOINED
IN WITH SOME MORE URBAN AREAS.
>>
THAT'S ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY, BUT IN MY OPINION, HAVING DONE
THIS BEFORE, I THINK WHAT YOU DO IS LOOK AT PEOPLE WHO HAVE
LIKE INTERESTS AND TRY AND MAKE THE DISTRICTS AS COMPACT AS
POSSIBLE. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF AREAS -- THINGS YOU HAVE TO
DO IN ORDER TO MAKE A DISTRICT WORK. IT'S MY BELIEF THAT THE
CITY WILL AGAIN BE -- YOU KNOW, IN NEW YORK STATE, YOU CAN ONLY
CUT UP CITIES; YOU CANNOT CUT UP TOWNS OR VILLAGES. SO THE FACT
IS THAT THE CITY WILL AGAIN BE GERRYMANDERED IN ITS OWN WAY
TO TRY AND HELP TO MAKE THOSE DISTRICTS FIT. I DON'T SEE IT
AS AN ISSUE THAT WE OUGHT TO BE AWFULLY CONCERNED ABOUT, EXCEPT
FOR THE FACT THAT THOSE OF US WHO ARE THERE OUGHT TO MAKE SURE
THAT PEOPLE EVEN FROM DOWNSTATE UNDERSTAND THAT WE WANT THOSE
DISTRICTS AS BEST WE CAN FOR THE PEOPLE WE REPRESENT.
>>
Gary Walker: THE PROCESS IS THIS: THE STATE ASSEMBLY, WHICH
IS A DEMOCRATIC ASSEMBLY, BY WHATEVER PROCESS IT IS, THEY CUT
ALL THE ASSEMBLY DISTRICTS, AND THE STATE SENATE, BEING A REPUBLICAN
BODY, CUTS ALL THE SENATE DISTRICTS, AND THEY CUT THEM IN SUCH
A WAY THAT THEY WILL PERPETUATE THEIR MAJORITY. NOW YOU CAN
THINK ABOUT THAT HOWEVER YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT THAT.
>>
YOU HAVE TO BE AWFULLY CAREFUL WITH THAT SEAT THAT JIM REPRESENTS
RIGHT NOW. \W ???? THAT'S WHERE THEY THOUGHT ANNE DUNNE -- IN
FACT MARY ELLEN JONES WON THE SEAT, THEN DECIDED TO RETIRE AND
GO ON TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. SO THAT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK ON BEHALF
OF THOSE WHO THINK THEY'RE CUTTING THE SEATS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.
>>
Gary: BUT IT IS THE INTENT, THOUGH; IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?
>>
I WOULD NOT NECESSARILY SAY THAT. THIS IS A POLITICAL PROCESS,
GARY. I SAID THAT BEFORE AND I SAY IT AGAIN, AND INCUMBENCY
IS NOT SOMETHING THAT ONE OUGHT TO SHY AWAY FROM. THE FACT IS
THAT IN OUR HOUSE, WE WILL TRY AND CUT THE DISTRICT AS BEST
WE CAN TO REPRESENT ONE MAN, ONE VOTE, AND SURE, IT'S A POLITICAL
PROCESS; SO, THEREFORE, INCUMBENTS SOMETIMES ARE PROTECTED.
>>
WE MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT OUR DISTRICTS BEING DISRUPTED TO
SOME EXTENT, MORE RURAL AREAS BROUGHT IN BECAUSE THEY'LL BE
GEOGRAPHICALLY LARGER. THAT MAY NOT NECESSARILY BE THE CASE
WITH US HERE IN THE MONROE COUNTY REGION. AND THE REASON FOR
THAT IS THAT WE HAVE NOT LOST POPULATION IN MONROE COUNTY. WE
HAVE BEEN FAIRLY STABLE. TO THE EAST OF US, POPULATION HAS GROWN.
BUT TO THE WEST OF US, IN THE BUFFALO AREA, THEY HAVE LOST ABOUT
50,000 PEOPLE. SO IF THERE'S AN IMPACT THERE, I WOULD SAY THAT
THE IMPACT WOULD BE FAR GREATER IN THE BUFFALO AREA, AND DOWNSTATE
IN THE NEW YORK CITY/LONG ISLAND AREA, GROWTH IN THE NEW YORK
CITY AREA, A LOSS OF POPULATION IN THE BUFFALO AREA. AND THAT
MEANS THAT THE BIGGEST CHANGE AND THE MOST VISIBLE CHANGE TO
A SENATE OR ASSEMBLY DISTRICT WOULD PROBABLY BE SEEN ON THE
NEGATIVE SIDE IN BUFFALO BUT WOULD NOT NECESSARILY IMPACT US
THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED HERE IN THE MONROE COUNTY AREA.
>>
JIM, THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, THOUGH, BECAUSE AS YOU DRAW
THE LINES, YOU'LL NOTICE THAT IT SHIFTS RIGHT ACROSS NEW YORK
STATE, PARTICULARLY IN THE CONGRESSIONAL LINES. IF YOU MAKE
A CHANGE DOWN AROUND DUCHESS/PUTNAM COUNTY, DOWN AROUND IN THAT
AREA, AND WHAT YOU SEE IS THAT SHIFT COMES HALFWAY ACROSS THE
STATE BECAUSE THE TOWNS ARE MUCH CLOSER THAN THEY ARE IN THE
ASSEMBLY AND SENATE. WE HAVE A PLUS OR MINUS 5% WHICH WE CAN
DEAL WITH AND MAKE THE NUMBERS BALANCE, BUT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT CONGRESSIONAL LINES, YOU MAKE A CHANGE NEAR ALBANY, AND
THAT CHANGE MAY COME ALL THE WAY OVER TO MONROE COUNTY. AND
TYPICALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS BOTH PARTIES START AT THE TIP OF LONG
ISLAND. SO AS WE GET TO THE WEST, WHICH IS WHERE THE LOSS WAS,
I THINK YOU'LL SEE THOSE DISTRICTS GROW SLIGHTLY, AND THE DISTRICTS
BACK HERE MAY NOT GROW AS MUCH. I THINK THEY TYPICALLY DO THOSE
LAST, IF I REMEMBER THE PROCESS WHEN I WORKED ON IT.
>>
THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT I THINK IT WAS MORE FOCUSED ON ASSEMBLY
AND SENATE DISTRICTS RATHER THAN CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.
>>
Gary Walker: LET ME ASK BLAIR HERE BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS
HE HAS DONE IN ALBANY FOR -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY DECADES NOW,
BUT AS A PUBLIC WATCHDOG GROUP, WHAT DOES NYPIRG THINK ABOUT
THE REAPPORTIONING PROCESS WE HAVE NOW? YOU HAVE BEEN CRITICAL
OF SOME OF THE DISTRICTS BEING LITERALLY --
>>
WELL, THE PROCESS AS BEING DESCRIBED IS CLEARLY THE PROCESS,
BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. I MEAN OTHER STATES DO IT
ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY. THE STATE OF IOWA, FOR EXAMPLE, SAYS YOU
CAN'T CONSIDER THE ADDRESSES OF THE INCUMBENT LEGISLATORS; YOU
CAN'T LOOK AT PARTY ENROLLMENTS WHEN YOU'RE DRAWING UP DISTRICTS,
AND THEY IN FACT HAVE KIND OF A NON-PARTISAN REDISTRICTING PROCESS.
SO WHILE IT'S TRUE THAT IN NEW YORK WE HAVE THE SYSTEM THAT'S
BEING DESCRIBED, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY. IN FACT, I
THINK SOME OF THE COMMENTS YOU WERE MAKING EARLIER THAT OFTENTIMES
THE CRITERIA IN TERMS OF HOW THESE DISTRICTS COME TOGETHER IS
TO MAXIMIZE INCUMBENCY PROTECTION AND MAXIMIZE MAJORITY STATUS
OF BOTH HOUSES, BUT AGAIN IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY. SO
OUR CRITICISMS HAVE BEEN MORE IN THE PROCESS OF HOW THE DISTRICTING
PROCESS PLAYS OUT AND LESS ABOUT INDIVIDUAL LEGISLATORS.
>>
Gary Walker: WELL, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT. IF I
HEARD CRITICISM PREPARING OUR REPORT, FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICAL
OF THE PROCESS THAT WE HAVE NOW, IT'S THAT THE WHOLE IDEA OF
REDISTRICTING IS TO SHAKE THINGS UP; IT'S TO GET NEW BLOOD INTO
THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, TO CHANGE SOME DISTRICTS AND CHANGE INPUT
--
>>
I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S NECESSARILY THE CASE. THE FACT IS MY
CONSTITUENTS, AND IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHETHER I RUN
IN 130, 131... IF GIVEN HIS SCENARIO WHERE YOU DON'T TAKE THAT
INTO CONSIDERATION, MORE THAN LIKELY PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY
KNOW WHO I AM AND I WILL STILL HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT.
BUT WHAT YOU DO IS YOU THEN GIVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR STAFF TO
RUN THE SHOW RATHER THAN HAVE THOSE MEMBERS WHO ARE ELECTED
BY THE PEOPLE TO RUN THE SHOW. HE AND I DISAGREE ABOUT THAT.
WE HAVE A RIGHT TO DISAGREE. I THINK MY CONSTITUENTS ARE MUCH
BETTER OFF HAVING ME THERE REPRESENTING THEIR INTERESTS THAN
TO HAVE ME OVER IN ANOTHER DISTRICT REPRESENTING NEW INTERESTS
AND NOT KNOWING WHAT THOSE ARE, NOT HAVING LEARNED THOSE, --
THERE IS A LEARNING CURVE TO IT -- RATHER THAN TO HAVE ME REPRESENTING
THE INTERESTS THAT I'VE BEEN REPRESENTING.
>>
Gary Walker: BUT WOULDN'T YOU RUN TO THE DISTRICT THAT TOOK
OVER YOUR OLD DISTRICT? WOULDN'T YOU JUST SAY, "OKAY. I AM NO
LONGER THE 133rd; I'M THE 132nd."
>>
YEAH.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT? I COULD DO THAT. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MY MOVING
BACK TO THE DISTRICT WHERE I WAS BEFORE?
>>
Gary Walker: WELL, JUST WHATEVER THE DISTRICT THAT ENCOMPASSES
THE AREA YOU REPRESENT NOW, YOU WOULD JUST MOVE TO THAT DISTRICT.
>> BUT REMEMBER SOMETHING. IN MY OFFICE, I DEAL WITH A NUMBER
OF PROBLEMS, PROBABLY MANY SOCIAL PROBLEMS THAT OTHER LEGISLATORS
DON'T DEAL WITH. THOSE PEOPLE -- YOU KNOW WHAT I CAN ALMOST
GUARANTEE YOU? THEY WOULD END UP CALLING TO MY OFFICE, GIVEN
THE FACT THAT I MOVED TO THE OTHER DISTRICT. IS THAT FAIR TO
THE --
>> Gary Walker: I THINK YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME. WHAT I MEANT WAS
THAT THE PEOPLE YOU REPRESENT NOW, IF THEY WERE REDISTRICTED
INTO ANOTHER DISTRICT, YOU WOULD JUST SAY, "OKAY, I'M STILL
REPRESENTING THE SAME PEOPLE BUT MY DISTRICT NUMBER HAS CHANGED.
THAT'S ALL. I WON'T RUN IN THE 133rd, BUT I WILL RUN IN THE
132nd."
>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, GARY.
>>
Gary: WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS --
>> AGAIN, THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE CENSUS IN 1770, WHEN THE FOUNDING
FATHERS PUT TOGETHER THE PROCESS, WAS TO FIGURE OUT HOW DO YOU
HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY? FIRST AND FOREMOST, HOW DO
YOU MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED ADEQUATELY IN
CONGRESS, THAT THEY REPRESENT YOUR LOCAL GOVERNMENT? I THINK
IF YOU ACTUALLY SET UP A PROCESS THAT FOCUSED MORE ON, AS A
PRIORITY, THE COMMUNITY LINES, THE COMPACTNESS FIRST AND FOREMOST,
AND THEN LOOK AT OTHER STATES. FOR EXAMPLE, IN IOWA, THE LEGISLATORS
ULTIMATELY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO VOTE ON WHAT THE LINES
ARE, BUT IF YOU TAKE OUT OF THE PROCESS SOME OF THE POLITICAL
INFORMATION, MAYBE YOU WOULD HAVE A MORE REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.
>>
Gary Walker: LET ME ASK ONE BIG QUESTION. LET'S SAY NEW YORK
STATE DID WHAT SOME OTHER STATES DO AND HAVE A JUDGE OR EVEN
POLITICAL SCIENTISTS REDRAW THE DISTRICTS. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK
WE WOULD HAVE A BIG CHANGE IN THE MAJORITY OR MINORITY STATUS
OF THE HOUSES OR IN THE NUMBER OF LEGISLATORS WHO WERE DEFEATED
AS INCUMBENTS IF THEY WERE DEFEATED DRAWN STRICTLY ON A CONTIGUOUS
BASIS OR WITHOUT USING ANY POLITICAL INFORMATION?
>>
I THINK IN SOME PARTS OF THE STATE THERE ARE MORE TELEPHONE
POLES THAN THERE ARE REPUBLICANS. IN SOME PARTS OF THE STATE,
THERE ARE MORE COWS THAN THERE ARE DEMOCRATS. IN SOME PARTS
OF THE STATE, THERE'S NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE. IT'S JUST THE
WAY PEOPLE ARE. THEY REGISTER IN ONE PARTY. THAT'S FINE. BUT
I THINK THERE WOULD BE MORE COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS. I DON'T THINK
THERE WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE NECESSARILY IN THE NUMBERS
OF DISTRICTS WHERE THERE'S -- FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE SENATE, OF
THE 61 SENATE SEATS, 29 OF THEM HAVE REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES.
WHERE THEY MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE REALLY IS THEIR CAMPAIGN FINANCE
ADVANTAGES THAT THEY HAVE OVER THE DEMOCRATS. SAME THING IN
THE ASSEMBLY. YOU HAVE A 5-3 DEMOCRAT-TO-REPUBLICAN ENROLLMENT
ADVANTAGE AND ROUGHLY SOMEWHERE IN THE LOW 90s IS BASICALLY
THE NUMBER OF DISTRICTS THAT THEY HAVE AN ADVANTAGE IN AND THEY
MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF THEIR CAMPAIGN FINANCE --
>>
Gary Walker: SO THE INNER-PARTY COMPETITIVENESS --
>>
WELL, THERE MAY BE MORE DISTRICTS THAT ARE MORE COMPETITIVE,
BUT IT MIGHT NOT CHANGE IF YOU JUST BREAK DOWN THE NUMBERS OF
HOW MANY DISTRICTS ONE PARTY HAS AN ADVANTAGE IN OVER --
>> GARY, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO MENTION ONE THING HERE. YOU
SAID THAT THE PURPOSE BEHIND REDISTRICTING WAS TO SHAKE THINGS
UP --
>>
Gary Walker: NO, IT'S SOME OF THE CRITICISMS I HAVE HEARD ABOUT
OUR PARTICULAR PROCESS, YOU KNOW. THEY WANT, YOU KNOW, TO GET
DISTRICTS MORE COMPETITIVE.
>>
THAT WOULD BE THE LAST COMPELLING REASON I CAN THINK OF TO HAVE
REDISTRICTING. REALLY THE WHOLE THRUST BEHIND REDISTRICTING
IS SIMPLY THE ONE PERSON/ONE VOTE, TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S
PROPER REPRESENTATION. BUT SIMPLY TO DO THIS TO SHAKE THINGS
UP OR TO JUST GIVE OTHER PEOPLE A BETTER CHANCE AT RUNNING AND
WINNING RACES SHOULD NOT REALLY BE THE REASON FOR REDISTRICTING.
IT SHOULD BE FOR PERFECT REPRESENTATION OR AS NEAR PERFECT AS
YOU CAN GET. AND THAT'S WHY THE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE DOES WORK,
EVEN THOUGH IT'S VERY POLITICAL BECAUSE, AS OPPOSED TO OTHER
STATES, YOU HAVE NEW YORK STATE, WHICH IS SO POLITICAL OF A
STATE IN THIS COUNTRY. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE HAVE A PLACE
CALLED NEW YORK CITY WHICH IS FAR DIFFERENT THAN ANYPLACE ELSE,
AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT UPSTATE, DOWNSTATE, IF WE JUST DID IT
THE WAY ANOTHER STATE DID IT, WITH TOTAL ANONYMITY AS FAR AS
WHO IS RUNNING AND REPRESENTING THINGS, THEN YOU WOULDN'T HAVE
THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THOSE PEOPLE TO BE REPRESENTED BY SOMEONE
WHO KNOWS THEM AND UNDERSTANDS THEM, THE WAY DAVID MENTIONED
THAT HE KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS HIS CONSTITUENTS, AND THE WAY
THAT I DO.
>>
Gary Walker: BUT YOU HAVE TO ADMIT SOME OF THOSE DISTRICTS ARE
PRETTY WACKY LOOKING WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MAP.
>>
YEAH, BUT, GARY, A LOT OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE NEW YORK STATE
CONSTITUTION WHICH SAYS YOU CAN'T BREAK UP A TOWN. SO BASED
UPON THAT TOWN, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE WHOLE TOWN, SO THAT HELPS
TO MAKE SOME OF THOSE DISTRICTS FUNNY LOOKING.
>>
Gary Walker: LET ME, IN THE TIME WE HAVE LEFT, AND, BLAIR, I
KNOW YOU WANT TO COMMENT ON THIS, BECAUSE IN REALITY WHEN YOU
LOOK AT THE JOB THAT THE HEAD OF THE SENATE AND THE ASSEMBLY
ON THIS, YOU CAN'T DISCOUNT THE PRESSURES THERE ARE FOR DISTRICTS
OF MINORITY INTERESTS, RURAL INTERESTS, URBAN INTERESTS. BALANCING
ALL OF THEM HAS GOT TO GIVE A WOODPECKER A HEADACHE.
>>
VERY TRUE. WHEN THIS PROCESS STARTED BACK IN 18-WHATEVER IT
WAS, THE FACT IS THAT THE MINORITIES THAT ARE AROUND TODAY WERE
NOT AROUND. AND IF WE ARE GOING TO PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF
ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THIS STATE AND IN THIS COUNTRY, WE
MUST TAKE ALL THOSE THINGS INTO CONSIDERATION. IF NOT, THEN
WHAT HAPPENS IS, AS I HAVE ALWAYS SAID, YOU TAKE THIS SMALL
PIECE OF THE MINORITY COMMUNITY AND PUT IT IN WITH -- WHERE
THE DISTRICT'S DIFFERENT, TYPICALLY IT'S DEMOCRAT, SO YOU PUT
THEM IN WITH THAT. THAT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE INTERESTS OF
THE PEOPLE WHO I NORMALLY REPRESENT. AND I WOULD NOT BE IN FAVOR
OF SOMETHING THAT DID EXACTLY THAT. IN TERMS OF THE CONGRESSIONAL
DISTRICTS, LET ME REMIND ALL OF US WHO SIT AT THIS TABLE, IT
WAS THE COURT'S DISTRICTS THAT WE USED LAST TIME. IT WAS NOT
EITHER OURS IN THE ASSEMBLY OR THE SENATE'S. WE TOOK THE COURT'S
DISTRICTS AND PUT THE LINES IN PLACE.
>> JUST TO STRENGTHEN THAT POINT, THE CONSTITUTION ALSO SAYS
YOU CAN'T DIVIDE A COUNTY UP, BUT MORE THAN HALF OF THE COUNTIES
ARE DIVIDED BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYS THEY HAVE TO
BE IN ORDER FOR PURE REPRESENTATION.
>>
Gary Walker: WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT AND I WANT TO ASK A
QUICK QUESTION. WHAT ROLE SHOULD THE PUBLIC HAVE? DOES THE PUBLIC
HAVE ENOUGH ROLE IN THIS PROCESS?
>> I DON'T KNOW IF THE PUBLIC HAS A REAL NECESSARY ROLE BECAUSE
IT'S A LEGISLATIVE PROCESS. THE LEGISLATURE GIVES THE AUTHORITY
TO START AND APPROVE THAT PROCESS TO A COMMISSION.
>>
Gary: BLAIR?
>>
NO, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE MORE. I THINK WITH THE ADVANCES IN
TECHNOLOGY, IF THE LEGISLATURE AGREES, THEY SHOULD BE POSTING
AN INTERACTIVE WEB SITE NEXT WEEK TO START PUTTING UP THE INFORMATION
UP THERE SO THE PUBLIC CAN START TO SEE HOW THIS PROCESS UNFOLDS.
>>
BLAIR, THEY CAN'T PUT THE INFORMATION UP. THEY DON'T HAVE THAT
INFORMATION, SO I DON'T WANT YOU TO SIT HERE AND TELL PEOPLE
THAT THERE'S INFORMATION THERE. IS IT THE -- (indecipherable)
-- NUMBER ONE? NUMBER TWO IS I DISAGREE WITH YOU WHEN YOU SAY
THE PUBLIC DOESN'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE INPUT. WE HELD
PUBLIC HEARINGS ALL OVER THE STATE; WE HAD COMPUTERS IN LIBRARIES,
AND I WOULD THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO DO THE SAME THING THIS
TIME. THE UNFORTUNATE THING IS THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE SUCH AS
YOURSELF WHO WOULD LIKE TO HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER THE PROCESS
THAN YOU DO. I THINK IT'S A LEGISLATIVE PROCESS. I THINK YOU
OUGHT TO BE WATCH-DOGGING US, BUT WE OUGHT TO TAKE CARE OF THE
BUSINESS.
>> Gary Walker: ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE IS PROBABLY THE GOVERNOR.
WE DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT HIS PROPOSAL. WE COULD
PROBABLY TALK ABOUT IT FOR AN HOUR, BUT I WANT TO THANK MY GUESTS
FOR TAKING ALL THE TIME. THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
JOIN US NEXT WEEK FOR A PROGRAM ON COMPUTER CRIME. WE'LL TELL
YOU WHO'S HACKING WHO AND HOW YOU CAN AVOID BEING HACKED YOURSELF.
THANKS FOR JOINING US. SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.
(Music)